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Sonnenwende

mickar

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Hi!
Just first announcements of my project on depicting the most interesting part of failed Sonnenwende operation in Pommern, mid February`45. Deblocade of Arnswalde (Choszczno) by Nordland division and evacuation of garnison(with parts of 501 SchPzAbt). On Soviet side bunch of depleted rifle divisions with growing amount of gurard units as reinforcements. OdB still in developement as there are huge gaps in literature concerning with composition of Nordland participated in battle and details of soviet side.
Map based on german Messtischblatt 1:25k series from mid 30`s

Still have set of "how to" problems with depicting some crucial elements of battle... for example:
-main focus of German side was to evacuate civilans and garrison of Arnswalde - how to depict the mob of civilians that have to exit area? How to deal with objectives and their value in the city area...
-many accounts mention weakness of soviet rifle divisons - with batalions counting 120-150 mens - should I just slide strengh of companies down to 30%, or combine them to one weak batalion unit?

maps from Osprey`s webpage about duel IS2 vc Tiger 2 tome.

comments and suggestions welcomed as this is my first attempt :)
arnswalde.png sonnen osprey.png arnsosprey.png
 

ioncore

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-main focus of German side was to evacuate civilans and garrison of Arnswalde - how to depict the mob of civilians that have to exit area? How to deal with objectives and their value in the city area...

You have at least two options (more experienced guys could suggest more of course), one is more complex and second is simpler:
- represent them as actual foot units with a lot of manpower and few rifles/vehicles, assign some huge infantry value to them and then add some exit objectives which will require these huge infantry values for completion;
- represent their routes as objectives, so that VP are granted if German player controls the route for some period of time (I guess you may also find some use of linked objectives here, please check the appropriate chapter in the manual).

-many accounts mention weakness of soviet rifle divisons - with batalions counting 120-150 mens - should I just slide strengh of companies down to 30%, or combine them to one weak batalion unit?

First, this is not a total headcount, but rather "active rifles" count (e.g. Grabenstärke, if that better suites you) which normally doesn't include 82mm mortar crews etc.
Second, Soviets did have special temporary ToEs for this kind of situation. Normally, they attempted to cut down number of battalions first (so that they would prefer to have single strong battalion rather than three depleted), and then they would also cut down number of companies in the battalion, merging them together. Typically, you'd have a regimental HQ with single subordinate Bn HQ (plus a bunch of regimental support) and 1-2 rifle companies at their 80-100% inside that Bn.
 

john connor

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Map looks beautiful. Look forward to this. You are making your own EF estabs from scratch, I guess? Good luck with that. Big job.

How long, Ioncore, before we get a scenario with some manner of EF estab (not the Jap/Soviet estab that's coming 'soon', but an Axis/Soviet estab, I mean)? How long roughly, I mean. 2 years?
 
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Hi!
. . .

-many accounts mention weakness of soviet rifle divisons - with batalions counting 120-150 mens - should I just slide strengh of companies down to 30%, or combine them to one weak batalion unit?

. . .

comments and suggestions welcomed as this is my first attempt :)

How you organize depleted units depends on how they were organized within the battle.

As an example, toward the end of the African campaign, Rommel maintained a chain of command which included his original division level command structures even though the manpower strength of those "divisions" was little more than enough soldiers and equipment to staff a regimental or battalion organization. In that case, the "division" would be maintained as an OOB unit, but it's operating strength would be a percentage of the normally authorized manpower at each traditional echelon of command (regiment / brigade, battalion, company, platoon).

On the flip side, there are ad hoc Allied "task groups" largely organized around a regimental- or brigade-sized force inside an allied division structure in late 1944. These emerged as individual echelons of command were depleted or exhausted, and the remaining units were organized under the leadership of remaining regimental commanders. Where a normal armored division had three commands (Combat Command A, Combat Command B, and Combat Command Reserve), a task grouped division may include two task groups organized around a specific commander (e.g. Task Group Jones) to account for the loss of one-third the total division strength during combat by asembling fewer regimental-sized units under the division structure.

In a third example, Hitler spent his final days ordering "Armies" to protect Berlin as the Soviets advanced from the east. While the commander was an army-level general, the "army" was little more than a brigade in terms of fighting strength. In part, this was a sign of his growing dementia toward the end of the war, and a reluctance to admit the loss of what were once significant fighting formations.

Accounts I've read about the eastern front indicated that the Soviets maintained the traditional echelons of command as in the first example -- the same number and echelons of units which operated at significantly reduced strength from their at start OOB manpower.

Hopefully the accounts of the battle you're modeling contains some hint of how the groups were task organized.
 

ioncore

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How long, Ioncore, before we get a scenario with some manner of EF estab (not the Jap/Soviet estab that's coming 'soon', but an Axis/Soviet estab, I mean)? How long roughly, I mean. 2 years?

Sooner than you think (tm)
Bear in mind EF estab will be split into phases like 1930-1940, 1941-1942, 1942-1943, 1943-1945 (well, may be less granular, but at least 2-3 parts anyway). We yet have to see what will be the next EF release after the Khalkhin-Gol; we have already had some preliminary discussions with Dave about that, but no decision yet. Most probably it will be "true" East Front, but likely set up in 1941-1942. So it won't help mickar with his 1945 artwork.
 

J. van Limpt

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Sooner than you think (tm)
Bear in mind EF estab will be split into phases like 1930-1940, 1941-1942, 1942-1943, 1943-1945 (well, may be less granular, but at least 2-3 parts anyway). We yet have to see what will be the next EF release after the Khalkhin-Gol; we have already had some preliminary discussions with Dave about that, but no decision yet. Most probably it will be "true" East Front, but likely set up in 1941-1942. So it won't help mickar with his 1945 artwork.

So all phases are planned sooner or later?
 

ioncore

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So all phases are planned sooner or later?
Yes, eventually. However, given our extremely limited resources, we need to tread very carefully.
There were certain - and very pragmatic - reasons to pick Khalkhin-Gol as the first EF title (even though some criticism of the decision was anticipated, and you may have already seen such kind of posts here and over other CO-themed forums, that Khalkhin-Gol is not the "true" East Front) to be released first, to be used as a testbed for new Estabs, new math etc.
However, there are also some other EF titles I'm currently researching in parallel (meaning here: creating maps, collecting ToE data for future Estabs, collecting archival documents/materials - which requires enormous amount of time and costs - etc) that are planned to be developed/released after the Khalkhin-Gol.
 

J. van Limpt

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Yes, eventually. However, given our extremely limited resources, we need to tread very carefully.
There were certain - and very pragmatic - reasons to pick Khalkhin-Gol as the first EF title (even though some criticism of the decision was anticipated, and you may have already seen such kind of posts here and over other CO-themed forums, that Khalkhin-Gol is not the "true" East Front) to be released first, to be used as a testbed for new Estabs, new math etc.
However, there are also some other EF titles I'm currently researching in parallel (meaning here: creating maps, collecting ToE data for future Estabs, collecting archival documents/materials - which requires enormous amount of time and costs - etc) that are planned to be developed/released after the Khalkhin-Gol.

As much as I like to go to the ' true' Eastern front, I think you made a wise decision.
 
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