Sunrise and Sunset

[Cepheus76]

Hello all,

I have a small suggestion regarding the environment of the game. The current times for sunset and -rise, as well as the length of dusk and dawn is at present quite inaccurate.

For example, in the "Return to St Vith" scenario, sunrise is at 0800, dawn begins at 0700, and it is full day at 0900. The sun sets at 1700, dusk starts at 1600, and it is night after 1800. However, in reality, on the 5th of January morning civil twilight begins in that area at 0756, sunrise is at 0833, sunset is at 1649, and evening civil twilight ends at 1725. I know that I seem like a total nerd, but I admit that the "generic" timings make me a bit unhappy.

If the game engine permits, I would think that the implementation of accurate timings for sunrise etc. would give the game a bit more realism, which we all are looking for (and would give a beginner like me some more hours of darkness to move my troops around ).

Of course, I'm willing to make the necessary contribution and work the times for sunrise etc. out and hand them over to someone who knows how to implement them.

Best regards,

Cepheus

 

[Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor]

Cepheus,

Thanks for your suggestion. I appreciate your point about the fidelity of the weather times. We do need to change the weather system from hourly blocks to minute events. This will require mods to the UI as well as the AI.

Others,

How important do you rate this feature?

 

[Keydet]

Dave, i think it is important but how does it rank against other things on the "list". A pairwise comparison to all the top items might result in me placing something further ahead. For instance:
* dismounting and mounting motorized and mechanized infantry
* movement of unmounted infantry transport vehicles
* dismounted tank crews (crews/survivors who abandoned the tank)
* dismounted reconnaissance (US cav units in Loscheim Gap)
* dismounted reconnaissance heavy weapons (US cav units in Loscheim Gap)
* reassignment of heavy weapons carriers to transport infantry

This has been discussed in the past on the Matrix forum as you initiated it here, Cepheus. I attempted a workaround in KOAD which I abandoned after looking at the math. See the following excerpt from the KOAD designer notes.

At first the sunrise settings in KOAD were set to 0900. BFTB is set to 0800. Combat Ops calculates dawn or twilight as one hour before. That makes dawn as 07:00 in BFTB. After careful consideration of the table below I see that the sunrise setting should be restored to 0800 as in BFTB. Taking 10 minutes of daylight from the US and 34 minutes of night from the Germans is the lessor error and play imbalance than the other possibility which takes 1 hour and 10 minutes of daylight from the US and adds an extra 24 minutes of night to the Germans. The extra 24 m of twilight is assumed not to be an advantage for one side or the other.


The data in the table is for Luxembourg City on Dec 16, 1944, per http://www.sunrisesunset.com/predefined.asp. Adjacent is the BFTB settings and the KOAD settings.

Civil Twi: Actual 7:48 BFTB 07:00 calculated KOAD 08:00 calculated

Sunrise: Actual 8:26 BFTB 08:00 entered KOAD 09:00 entered

Sunset: Actual 16:36 BFTB 16:00 entered KOAD 16:00 entered

Civil Twi: Actual 17:14 BFTB 17:00 calculated KOAD 17:00 calculated

D: Actual 8h 10m BFTB 8h KOAD 7 h
N: Actual 14h 34m BFTB 14h KOAD 15h
Tw Actual 1h 16m BFTB 2h KOAD 2h

The BFTB deviation from actual throws the play balance slightly to the US taking 34 minutes of night away from the Germans and only 10 minutes of daylight from the US. Infiltration and movement in the darkness, low visibility and under overcast skies was primary to the German concept of the operation. The KOAD setting for sunrise brings dawn 30 minutes closer to the actual. However taking an hour + daylight from the US and adding an extra 24 minutes to the night is too strong a swing to the German side. it had to be changed back to the BFTB setting. (Another source http://www.gaisma.com/en/location/bastogne.html )

 

[Iconoclast]

I would rate it low.

On a more general note, an update on the 'feature list' would be appreciated. Just so we get an idea what is worked on next. At least I would find it informative.

Cheers

 

[Cepheus76]

Thanks for taking your ime to look at the issue and I fully appreciate that you have your plate already full with other feature requests. The accurate timings are not a dealbreaker for me and I will enjoy to play Command Ops in any case.

One note though: Keydet adressed the issue of possible gameplay imbalances for one side or the other. In my opinion, the length of a day is a fixed feature on the battlefield, the same like a hilltop or the road network. Commanders had to deal with it like with any other aspect of their environment. Therefore, I wouldn't take place too much emphasis on gameplay balance considerations.

Of course, reinforcement schedules and even the weather itself can be set to deviate from the historical events, so perhaps also sunrise and -set etc can be tweaked, lets say move it by 15 minutes or so. One could choose then in the game menu if the timings are accurate or the day is longer or shorter (within reason).

Again, this is not meant to unduly increase your workload, but is just a mere suggestion.

 

[Keydet]

... One note though: Keydet adressed the issue of possible gameplay imbalances for one side or the other. In my opinion, the length of a day is a fixed feature on the battlefield, the same like a hilltop or the road network. Commanders had to deal with it like with any other aspect of their environment. Therefore, I wouldn't take place too much emphasis on gameplay balance considerations.

The poorer the visibility the better the infiltration and the lessor the ability to fire on = advantage Germans. The longer the poor visibility lasts the greater that advantage. To be longer than historical is tilting the balance to the Germans. Create a scenario with only one hour of daylight per day and see the difference.

 

[Kurt]

I would rate it low.

On a more general note, an update on the 'feature list' would be appreciated. Just so we get an idea what is worked on next. At least I would find it informative.

Cheers

Ditto