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Yep me again - Don't agree with adding bases for all Soviet HQ levels

Grognerd

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Unfortunately there are never enough sources on Logistics of WW2, especially the Soviets.

As far as I've read seems to me that attaching bases to all the Brigades and Regiments in the Soviet Army (of 1942 in this case) is an invalid assumption.
Seems like Corps level and Army level supplied the line forces - One could say that Brigade/Rgt level is just an extension of Corp and Army, maybe so.
For this release I'm going with Army and Corp level bases only, well equipped with trucks. Zis-5, GAZ-AA, GAZ-MM and the Studebaker US6.
Anyone think I'm making an incorrect assertion? The Establishment Editor Manual aside.
 
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Unfortunately there are never enough sources on Logistics of WW2, especially the Soviets.

As far as I've read seems to me that attaching bases to all the Brigades and Regiments in the Soviet Army (of 1942 in this case) is an invalid assumption.
Seems like Corps level and Army level supplied the line forces - One could say that Brigade/Rgt level is just an extension of Corp and Army, maybe so.
For this release I'm going with Army and Corp level bases only, well equipped with trucks. Zis-5, GAZ-AA, GAZ-MM and the Studebaker US6.
Anyone think I'm making an incorrect assertion? The Establishment Editor Manual aside.
The base concept in CO2 is an abstraction of how logistics are handled, at least in relation to what I know of the US Army system.

if you could get a Table of Organization and Equipment (a document defining how a unit is designed from individual soldier skills up to the command staff including each piece of personal equipment assigned each soldier to equipment used to perform unit missions) you'd find some piece of the logistics system residing at every echelon from infantry squad (special forces squads) up to the national service level.

In CO2, the assets that may be assigned from squad up to regiment are aggregated as the "regimental base" and at higher echelons assets assigned to different functions (supply, maintenance, transportation, medical services, etc.) are aggregated into one "base". Reality is there are at least two base relatively static logistics locations for a battalion (supply and maintenance} supporting the logistics troops in subordinate units, and at least two at every other echelon above.

You can aggregate assets at whatever echelon level you want, but assuming the bases work as intended servicing forces down to the platoon level you're constraining some flexibility you gain by having base locations at lower levels. It makes daily supply runs longer and would tend to bunch transport assets at a single location where it would be easier for an enemy to interdict all supply runs.
 

Grognerd

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Thanks for responding, I'll do some testing to see how this works. Maybe I can find some info on Soviet logistics in WW2.
Just was thinking the Soviets tended to be one echelon lower in their military - Army=corp, Corp=Division etc. Was thinking maybe their depots followed the same rule. If it doesn't work I already have the lower echelons in the Estab file.
 
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Thanks for responding, I'll do some testing to see how this works. Maybe I can find some info on Soviet logistics in WW2.
Just was thinking the Soviets tended to be one echelon lower in their military - Army=corp, Corp=Division etc. Was thinking maybe their depots followed the same rule. If it doesn't work I already have the lower echelons in the Estab file.
I think it's more their naming convention than a change in operational configuration. Everyone seems to work from the manpower amd command / control equivalents of squad > platoon > company > battalion > regiment > division > corps > army > army group with the Soviets having the same strengths but naming the formation at a level lower than the allies and adding "front" past army group.
 

Grognerd

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Ok, Since (I'm pretty sure) you have significant military background (and I have none) I will concede the point to you. Guess that means I ought to go ahead and add the brigade and regimental bases. Ha! I also created the Soviets on battalion level and company level, was toying with seeing if the Soviets would work at battalion level. I was a bit hesitant because the infantry unit would be 405 men, I thought that was a bit too big. Just looking at ways to make the game show the differences in the armies.
 

GoodGuy

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For this release I'm going with Army and Corp level bases only, well equipped with trucks. Zis-5, GAZ-AA, GAZ-MM and the Studebaker US6.
Anyone think I'm making an incorrect assertion? The Establishment Editor Manual aside.
The Soviets still had a serious lack of vehicles when they conducted the Chir river operations, this goes for the transport pool for inf troops, at least.
The US truck deliveries had kicked in, yes, but the vehicle losses in 1941 had been so high, that even in mid/late 1942 entire fronts still suffered of this serious lack of transport vehicles. According to what I've read, quite some Russian infantry units, even tho planned/declared to be motorized units, had to filter through the stretched German defensive lines on foot, which made it easier for the Germans to contain and rectify breakthroughs of like 15 km (and more), during the Chir river operations. Poor coordination and the lack of communication (plus equipment?) was another problem, quite a few Russian troops got lost or operated in smaller groups, which made it easier for the Germans to beat or hold superior forces.
Also, putting in armored units as "fire brigades" worked so well, that hardened/experienced understrength units would be able to hold perimeters or able to rectify Russian breakthroughs. Quite often an inf division would try to hold a sector, assisted by a weaker inf unit, and a tank rgt. would then help as fire brigade, when an ID could not withstand anymore. Sometimes the bulk of the tank division would then take over, and defend until the enemy attacks died down, and would then rotate the ID (or another inf ID/rgt., if available) in again, and leave to get resupplied and head to another endangered sector.
I can't imagine that the Russians put the badly needed transport capacities into supply efforts only, when they knew that vital parts of the troops had to push on foot.
 
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Grognerd

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Most of the information I have available agree with you. I was going over some more info I found and I will be making another pass through the Soviet Establishment to tidy it up a bit. I saw plenty of horse carts in the OB's!
 

Grognerd

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Yes, right now the Battle of State Farm 79, then on to 3 other battles in this series.
After that I have source material for several battles at Brody.Dubno 1941
Then maybe Aksay river failed relief effort (from Mellinthin's book.
I'm doing a comprehensive 3rd pass of the Soviet Estab now.
I have 1941 and 1942 estab - Maybe later I'll mess with a 1943-44 and 45 estab.

Biggest issue I have is estimating the manpower of companies in 1941-42. My source material is based on the late 1942 thru 1944 manpower.
Niehorster is good for equipment & such but does not call out the men used at lower levels. Germans are a bit easier because there are establishment that use them from 1941-42.
 

john connor

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Have you done the map already? Can we see it?

Battles on the Chir was meant to be the first EF pack for CO2, but I don't know who was developing it or what happened to that plan. I saw a map once. I guess work had been done on the estabs etc. Have no idea who was doing it though. I wonder if it was Pavlo (ioncore)?
 
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Have you done the map already? Can we see it?

Battles on the Chir was meant to be the first EF pack for CO2, but I don't know who was developing it or what happened to that plan. I saw a map once. I guess work had been done on the estabs etc. Have no idea who was doing it though. I wonder if it was Pavlo (ioncore)?
There was a guy, Bill Harder, who was working on an East Front game when Command Ops was hosted on Matrix Games. The work stalled when he said he needed dismounted ops to continue development.

Dave announced the plan outlining the Chir battles as the foundation for the first East Front series here:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2983151&mpage=1&key=Chir&#2983151

You also did some work in 2015 and discussed it in the CO2 forum.


 

Grognerd

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There was a guy, Bill Harder, who was working on an East Front game when Command Ops was hosted on Matrix Games. The work stalled when he said he needed dismounted ops to continue development.
Well I'm going to go forward without dismounted ops, might not be the perfect way but as of now it's the only way. I lost momentum when I read the designer notes on khalkhin gol. I saw how professional a job they were doing and I thought to myself what an amateur I am. Well that's ok, this amateur is going to do some east from scenario's.
I actually remember that thread over at Matrix.
 

Arkadiy

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Yes, right now the Battle of State Farm 79, then on to 3 other battles in this series.
After that I have source material for several battles at Brody.Dubno 1941
Then maybe Aksay river failed relief effort (from Mellinthin's book.
I'm doing a comprehensive 3rd pass of the Soviet Estab now.
I have 1941 and 1942 estab - Maybe later I'll mess with a 1943-44 and 45 estab.

Biggest issue I have is estimating the manpower of companies in 1941-42. My source material is based on the late 1942 thru 1944 manpower.
Niehorster is good for equipment & such but does not call out the men used at lower levels. Germans are a bit easier because there are establishment that use them from 1941-42.

Are you referring to rifle/motor rifle companies? If so, take a look at this guy's work:

He's not listing sources, so it's up to you whether you want to take his work at face values or not. But you won't get much else in English (well, actually, let me rephrase that - I didn't find much else in English when I was looking).
 
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A
Well I'm going to go forward without dismounted ops, might not be the perfect way but as of now it's the only way. I lost momentum when I read the designer notes on khalkhin gol. I saw how professional a job they were doing and I thought to myself what an amateur I am. Well that's ok, this amateur is going to do some east from scenario's.
I actually remember that thread over at Matrix.
Amateurs become professional by practicing the craft.

You're doing fine!
 

john connor

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Map looks great. Estab the hardest bit, for the reasons you mention. Hope you finish it!
 

Grognerd

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Are you referring to rifle/motor rifle companies? If so, take a look at this guy's work:

He's not listing sources, so it's up to you whether you want to take his work at face values or not. But you won't get much else in English (well, actually, let me rephrase that - I didn't find much else in English when I was looking).
I have another work of companies here Soviet Companies but that is late 1942 to 44. So I will look at this fellows list. I'm looking to verify size of Motorized Rifle and Engineering & Recon companies. I'll be able to compare lists ans get some semblance of accuracy.
 

Grognerd

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Yep, you can map a great deal of Russia and the Ukraine with those WW2 German maps.
Found them at OldMap.org. I import them into Google Earth Pro, where I can measure and create mapscans for the map editor.
 
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