Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor
Panther Games Designer
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Remind me again next week. I would need to go through the code again and I'd rather focus on the installer, which we're testing at the moment.
Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor
Panther Games Designer
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2014
- Messages
- 3,416
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Canberra, Australia
- Website
- www.panthergames.com
I know. I know. But I'm knee deep in it still. Next week perhaps.Using Sadovsky formula I made a graphic of blast effects of large calibre shells.
Note that the 82 kg rocket has a larger blast radius than a 90 kg 8-inch shell because the rocket has 50kg of explosive filler, while the shell has 16kg of explosive filler. From what I've read, the large caliber Nebelwerfer rockets were pretty infamous for killing people with overpressure alone.
The circles show damage levels starting from the lightest outside to the severest in the centre:
1. dP is > 26 kg/cm2. Instant death, full body disintegration.
2. dP is > 8 kg/cm2. Instant death, body throw back, disintegration of body parts.
3. dP is > 5 kg/cm2. Fatal damage, 99% chance of lethal outcome. Disintegration of body parts, massive damage to soft tissue and bone .
4. dP > 3.8 kg/cm2. Heavy damage, 75% chance of lethal outcome. In lucky case hospitalization for at least 2-3 months.
5. dP > 2.5 kg/cm2. Moderate damage, 10% risk of fatality or hospitalization for 1-2 months.
6. dP > 2.1 kg/cm2. Light injuries, hospitalization for 7-15 days.
7. dP > 1.6 kg/cm2. Disruption of neural system up to loss of consciousness.
8. dP > 1.1 kg/cm2. Rupture of tympanic membranes for average human.
The Sturmtiger blast radius looks especially scary. Apparently it kills everything in a circle of 16 meter diameter D: .
Note that the 82 kg rocket has a larger blast radius than a 90 kg 8-inch shell because the rocket has 50kg of explosive filler, while the shell has 16kg of explosive filler. From what I've read, the large caliber Nebelwerfer rockets were pretty infamous for killing people with overpressure alone.
The circles show damage levels starting from the lightest outside to the severest in the centre:
1. dP is > 26 kg/cm2. Instant death, full body disintegration.
2. dP is > 8 kg/cm2. Instant death, body throw back, disintegration of body parts.
3. dP is > 5 kg/cm2. Fatal damage, 99% chance of lethal outcome. Disintegration of body parts, massive damage to soft tissue and bone .
4. dP > 3.8 kg/cm2. Heavy damage, 75% chance of lethal outcome. In lucky case hospitalization for at least 2-3 months.
5. dP > 2.5 kg/cm2. Moderate damage, 10% risk of fatality or hospitalization for 1-2 months.
6. dP > 2.1 kg/cm2. Light injuries, hospitalization for 7-15 days.
7. dP > 1.6 kg/cm2. Disruption of neural system up to loss of consciousness.
8. dP > 1.1 kg/cm2. Rupture of tympanic membranes for average human.
The Sturmtiger blast radius looks especially scary. Apparently it kills everything in a circle of 16 meter diameter D: .
Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor
Panther Games Designer
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2014
- Messages
- 3,416
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Canberra, Australia
- Website
- www.panthergames.com
Hah! Great timing hey! Can we postpone this discussion for another week. I'm in the lake trying to drain it but the crocs are gathering for the new release.
Can we postpone this discussion for another week. I'm in the lake trying to drain it but the crocs are gathering for the new release. 
simovitch
Member
pretty sure changing shell weight has no effect except for maybe the resupply algorithms that select the appropriate truck size during a supply run.
*bump* ?
Yeah. Noticed it. I've done some testing and apparently it doesn't do anything for damage against infantry despite that the manual says it affects hit probability and kill chance :/ .
Well, I remember @Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor mentioning in an old thread about artillery effects that the weight of projectile gets spread over radius, but it seems that it's not the case because there's no reaction from game to even drastically increasing projectile weight.
I would be very interested to know if shell weight increases damage to dug-in, entrenched and armoured units within their burst radius.
An 81mm mortar round directly impacting on an entrenched position is unlikely to do much damage, but a 240mm Howitzer round landing on it would.
The answer to this question, is to help when selecting the appropriate type of ranged unit for the correct type of target. Should I select a unit with a heavier shell, for neutralizing entrenched or dug in positions, or will any bombard unit, with enough burst radius to cover the target do?
Also regarding supply.
As the supply figures in the depots represent tons of ammunition stored, do the heavier calibre guns drain the supply depots faster than lighter calibre guns? Or is it not modelled like that in game?
An 81mm mortar round directly impacting on an entrenched position is unlikely to do much damage, but a 240mm Howitzer round landing on it would.
The answer to this question, is to help when selecting the appropriate type of ranged unit for the correct type of target. Should I select a unit with a heavier shell, for neutralizing entrenched or dug in positions, or will any bombard unit, with enough burst radius to cover the target do?
Also regarding supply.
As the supply figures in the depots represent tons of ammunition stored, do the heavier calibre guns drain the supply depots faster than lighter calibre guns? Or is it not modelled like that in game?
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At some point we could do with a more realistic inter-relationship between arty and target types . In Norm Kogers TOAW instead of just " dug-in " and " entrenched " there is a % scale , 100% entrenchment represents the maximum protection a typical unit could build/dig itself . This entrenching process would be effected by terrain , weather , unit proficiency and incoming fire . An area could have its entrenchment level reduced by being bombarded by heavy artillery of 150mm upwards
jimcarravallah
Member
There is a significant amount of discussion on fire effects here.
Other than the OPART sliding scale for entrenchment (which increases over a time period to optimum), I think most of what you're pointing at was discussed in the attachment.
At the time it was conducted, it was pointed toward the future CO2 engine. What was incorporated and what was deferred should be traceable from the list of attributes which defined the original release and any patches.
Thanks for the attached files Jim.
Unfortunately, I didn't find anything that answered my questions though.
There were some parts I found very interesting however:
"Adjust/correct weight and performance of a few ammunition types at the weapon level - mostly not present in the scenario, but done for consistency.
Replace all ammunition type quantities and weights in according with values found in ARTO(?) and US and German sources. Some become significantly lighter (especially low performance ammunition), some much heavier, and generally US packaging is heavier than German for similar ammunition (though some German natures are heavier due to higher velocity and larger case sizes).
For all NW weapons, replace warhead weight with the payload/warhead weight, rather than 'launch weight' - these weights are appropriate for packaged weight though, as they were shipped in open lattice cages of minimal weight.
There is an unresolved question about bombardment effectiveness - once I understand this a bit better (accuracy does what exactly? does it alter the impact location, or only casualties caused?) In this latter case, I'd be tempted to adjust accuracy to a maximum of 50%, possibly reducing it for very long or very short ranges - or adjusting bursting radius and accuracy to a 'higher lethality standard' for larger rounds, which might permit a closer range for danger-close when firing deliberately with these larger rounds than currently while retaining their higher lethality*, and simultaneously increasing the 'slop' in rapid fires of lighter guns without increasing lethality.
*The Finns used to 'plink' with their 21cm weapons, targeting a single 'hard-target' eg bunker with a handful of rounds fired for 'destruction' - with a wide dispersion, and 'normal' accuracy, this is/would be ineffective in game."
My questions still remain unanswered I'm afraid:
What effect does a heavier weight of shell have on entrenchment, if any?
I am assuming entrenchment would have overhead cover, so VT and MT fused salvos (used against dug in positions and troops in the open on soft terrain) would have little effect.
PD (point detonating) was a standard setting for use on most terrain but was less effective than fuses set to delay, which not only allows the round to penetrate a bunker before exploding, in the case of a direct hit, but also had the effect of collapsing the walls and roof structures of entrenched positions with near misses.
I mention this because the same weight of lighter calibre rounds, set to delay, might have more impact on a dispersed position than a few very large calibre rounds as there is more chance of them finding a target.
The more I think about it, the more variables I find, making me wonder if just an arbitrary figure to cover all situations is the better option anyway lol
I'm going to drop the question about heavier weight shells drawing more supply, as well, because I imagine to cover the same burst radius, with lighter munitions, would require close to the same weight of resupply, as you would be firing more of them, for the same effect.
Just a guess, I have done no research on it.
Unfortunately, I didn't find anything that answered my questions though.
There were some parts I found very interesting however:
"Adjust/correct weight and performance of a few ammunition types at the weapon level - mostly not present in the scenario, but done for consistency.
Replace all ammunition type quantities and weights in according with values found in ARTO(?) and US and German sources. Some become significantly lighter (especially low performance ammunition), some much heavier, and generally US packaging is heavier than German for similar ammunition (though some German natures are heavier due to higher velocity and larger case sizes).
For all NW weapons, replace warhead weight with the payload/warhead weight, rather than 'launch weight' - these weights are appropriate for packaged weight though, as they were shipped in open lattice cages of minimal weight.
There is an unresolved question about bombardment effectiveness - once I understand this a bit better (accuracy does what exactly? does it alter the impact location, or only casualties caused?) In this latter case, I'd be tempted to adjust accuracy to a maximum of 50%, possibly reducing it for very long or very short ranges - or adjusting bursting radius and accuracy to a 'higher lethality standard' for larger rounds, which might permit a closer range for danger-close when firing deliberately with these larger rounds than currently while retaining their higher lethality*, and simultaneously increasing the 'slop' in rapid fires of lighter guns without increasing lethality.
*The Finns used to 'plink' with their 21cm weapons, targeting a single 'hard-target' eg bunker with a handful of rounds fired for 'destruction' - with a wide dispersion, and 'normal' accuracy, this is/would be ineffective in game."
My questions still remain unanswered I'm afraid:
What effect does a heavier weight of shell have on entrenchment, if any?
I am assuming entrenchment would have overhead cover, so VT and MT fused salvos (used against dug in positions and troops in the open on soft terrain) would have little effect.
PD (point detonating) was a standard setting for use on most terrain but was less effective than fuses set to delay, which not only allows the round to penetrate a bunker before exploding, in the case of a direct hit, but also had the effect of collapsing the walls and roof structures of entrenched positions with near misses.
I mention this because the same weight of lighter calibre rounds, set to delay, might have more impact on a dispersed position than a few very large calibre rounds as there is more chance of them finding a target.
The more I think about it, the more variables I find, making me wonder if just an arbitrary figure to cover all situations is the better option anyway lol
I'm going to drop the question about heavier weight shells drawing more supply, as well, because I imagine to cover the same burst radius, with lighter munitions, would require close to the same weight of resupply, as you would be firing more of them, for the same effect.
Just a guess, I have done no research on it.
