2 Questions on making scenario's

Discussion in 'Command Ops Series' started by Grognerd, Mar 30, 2020.

  1. Grognerd

    Grognerd Member

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    If I may pester the community - thanks in advance...

    1) I found an estab file for soviet forces in the resources area (Prokhorovka for CO1), made by John Connor, it appeared to convert to a usable file when I opened it in CO2. Is it now a good CO2 file or should I create a Soviet Estab from scratch?

    2) After reading through the Estab & Scenario Manuals, I'm still not sure if I can import/export parts of Establishments between files. I want to take the Italians out of one Estab file and insert it into the one I'm working on. Is this even possible? Sure would make things easier then scratch making them.
     
  2. jimcarravallah

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    If you have the Estab.xml file, you can use a CO1 file as the basis for compiling a CO2 estab. Once compiled, the estab may not contain accurate attributes for combat, movement, visibility, and defense calculations, thus making the game performance less accurae, but if it's compiled it will work with the game.

    There's supposed to be a way to export specific information from one establishment .xml file to another, but I haven't been able to make it work.

    An .xml file can be edited with a plain text editor, so you can always cut or copy lines from one .xml file and paste them into a new version so long as you keep the sequencing of data blocks the same.
     
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  3. Grognerd

    Grognerd Member

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    Jim, thank you very much for the insight, I appreciate it.
     
  4. john connor

    john connor Member

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    That file was actually made by Chris Maiorana when he was doing his EF scenarios. He let me use it. Please note that in one very important respect at least - maybe others, I didn't check - it was inaccurate, in that Axis units had panzerfausts, which they didn't at Prokhorovka, or at that point in '43 generally. Makes a diff, in a famous tank battle, and that was one of the reasons I abandoned that effort, because I didn't have an accurate estab.
     
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  5. Grognerd

    Grognerd Member

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    Jim I've been studying the Estab Editor for several days now, seems not too complicated but time consuming. I do agree that the German Estabs need some love for the scenario's in the 1941 and 1942 timeframe. (not too much though)

    At this point I'm making a Microsoft office spreadsheet to list all the Soviet units & weapon systems needed. I think I will use the Estab as a guide but actually modify the Westwall Estab made for CO2. I have a very good library on WW2 vehicles, weapons and unit organizations, Google will help too.
     
  6. GoodGuy

    GoodGuy Member

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    Mass production must have started around June or July 1943, as the first batch (500 pcs.) of Panzerfaust 30 was delivered to frontline units in August 1943. Interestingly, the delivery of the predecessor, the smaller Faustpatrone, started the same month. While there were no Panzerfausts available in July, a semi-historical scenario/estab could simulate a situation where prototypes were given to frontline units for testing purposes in July.

    For the German estabs:
    Rotmistrov indicated 400 destroyed German tanks during the Battle of Prokhorovka, including numerous Panthers and Ferdinands.
    The II. SS Panzerkorps had no Panthers, nor any Ferdinands, according to historian Frieser, only the XXXXVIII. Panzerkorps' Panzer-Grenadier-Division Großdeutschland (structured like a Panzer-Division already) had received 200 Panthers, which were combined in the 2 Abteilungen of Panzerbrigade 10, which was attached to Großdeutschland. According to Frieser, 45 of those Panthers broke down on the way to the FUP for Operation Citadel.
    Großdeutschland and the 3 divisions of the II. SS-Panzerkorps each had one Tiger Coy (each with 13-15 Tigers) at their disposal. Additionally, Heavy Tank Bn 503 was deployed for the Southern pincer attack, as well.

    But according to Frieser, only 15 Tigers were operational on the Southern front on 12th of July, and (of these 15) only 5 fought in the Prokhorovka sector.
    Rotmistrov's report, that 70 Tiger tanks had been destroyed during the Battle, is a fairy tale he might have tailored to avoid court-martial.
    These wrong numbers were partially based on crew reports, though, as Russian crews had reported the presence/appearance of numerous Tigers, where they in fact had faced the new Panzer IV "Ausführung H" model, which had a more "beefy" silhouette/appearance (see below). Damaged or knocked out PzIV's were then reported as knocked-out Tigers, it seems.

    Basically, the biggest encounter occured in a sector where all involved tanks of the II. Panzer-Abteilung of the Leibstandarte were stationary and in a defensive stance, and where this lone Bn had fanned out, in order to be able to defend its relatively large sector.
    The attacking Russian tanks then rushed towards their positions in an attempt to fight them in close combat.
    Since the Russians performed a mass attack with badly staggered/aligned formations, some of the tanks rubbed against or even rammed each other, due to the high attack speed and probably due to the general nervousness among the crews, who erronously thought they faced Tigers all over the place. On top of that, some Russian intel indicated massed deployments of Tigers.

    Quite some of the tanks of the Leibstandarte were lined up behind a large Russian anti-tank ditch, which the Russian planners had not included in their plans, so quite a few Russian tanks fell into the obscured ditch, flipped over or even piled up in there. As the ditch featured only one narrow crossing, the Russian tanks trying to cross it could be knocked out easily.

    Russian and German tanks then tried to circle each other - where Russian tanks had actually made it to the German positions - and burning Russian tanks even tried to ram German tanks, in unsuccessful attempts to take the Germans with them on impact, acc. to the Leibstandarte veteran Kurt Pfötsch. A high number of Russian tanks were knocked out at medium and long distances already, though, as the terrain favored the defenders. It seems that the few observers (Russian recon prior to the attack was quite poor) as well as the actual Russian tank crews had incorrectly identified the silhouettes of the new Panzer IV H (with sideskirts and skirts around the turret) of the Leibstandarte as Tigers, so the tank units executed the order to get to distances below 500 meters (for side shots) or even below 300 meters (for frontal attacks), when engaging Tigers.

    With mounting losses, Rotmistrov threw more and more tanks into the battle, which failed to achieve territory gains and incurred high losses, as well.

    German archive data evaluated by Frieser indicates that the II. Panzerkorps reported 3 total tank losses and 143 tanks damaged (including 25 damaged Tigers) for that day (which includes losses of II. Korps units in neighboring sectors).
    Since Frieser indicates that only 15 Tigers were operational on 12th of July (in the South), it's possible that some Tigers were damaged during transfer to the front (eg. aerial attack) or that some Tigers were struck by mines during the transfer to the front. A number of Tigers were struck by German mines during Operation Citadel, actually. It's also possible that a number of Tigers broke down during relocation, a reported "damage" did not necess. involve enemy action, especially with the finicky gearboxes and clutches of the underpowered Tigers. At the end of Citadel, only 13 Tigers had to be rated as total losses, according to Jentz.

    Glantz insists on 60-70 lost tanks (did he mean total losses, means destroyed/written off?) in the Korps' entire sector (that day), and he seems to count all types. Glantz does not include the fact that the Germans kept dominating the area after the battle, so that they could retrieve/repair pretty much all (but 3) damaged tanks, in fact.
    When the Germans moved back to their initial positions after Citadel was called off, the Russians were able to retrieve and repair some of their abandoned/knocked out/damaged T-34s, as well.
     
    #6 GoodGuy, Apr 12, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
  7. Grognerd

    Grognerd Member

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    Reply to my own post - making a decent Estab file is harder than it looks! Ha! This will take longer than I first figured (oh well). At least map making is fairly easy with decent source maps.
     
  8. GoodGuy

    GoodGuy Member

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    I loved the HTTR/COTA map maker, simple and effective. Very nice tool.
     
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  9. jimcarravallah

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    I found the biggest difficulty in making an Estab was finding the source data to fill all the fields -- particularly those relating to weapons design and effectiveness and that specifying defining unit orders of battle for the year of the scenario design.

    What source data are you using to build your Estab?

    It may be people following this thread have other links that may be of help.
     
  10. Grognerd

    Grognerd Member

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    Sorry it took awhile to get back to you - Looks like I'm in one of those medical issues that take up a lot of time and energy! I don't think I'm going to get back to this anytime soon. Growing old is not for the feint of heart...
     
  11. jimcarravallah

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    Good luck with the medical issues.

    When you're ready to get back, post here and we'll see if we can help.
     
  12. teandre.kalif

    teandre.kalif Member

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    Hi, thanks for the reply it helped me a lot.
     
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