Best way to integrate CO2 Op Layer with CM series tactical action?

Discussion in 'Command Ops Series' started by kohlenklau, Aug 20, 2015.

  1. kohlenklau

    kohlenklau Member

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    Hello everybody,

    I am new to CO2. I had only played the BFTB demo before but have bought the CO2 bundle deal.

    I often play the various Combat Mission tactical level games and have several times used John Tiller Panzer Campaigns to overlay an operational layer to weave the CM battles together for my friends and I.
    I enjoy making them and seeing the action unfold.
    Here is one of them that is in progress if you wanted to take a look. It is "Bloody Christmas" and is the 1st Canadian Infantry Division in combat near Ortona in December 1943.
    The first 5 pages of posts are all the fire up interest and get organized then around post 88 or so it finally gets into some action.
    http://community.battlefront.com/topic/118835-cmpzc-operation-bloody-christmas-ortona-43/

    Anyway, any method has pluses and minuses and I wanted some ideas and opinions and inputs from folks here on how CO2 would mesh into a similar lash up of 2 different games. CO2 for operational layer and CM for tactical layer.

    Problems I see are that the CO2 is a real time application and would not have turns to stop and shift games. I also don't see if I can edit the ongoing scenario status in any way to backfeed results from the CM battles. The John Tiller Panzer Campaigns files are easily edited....

    Hmm, maybe this is a dead end?

    BUT I am still happy to be here to play CO2 by itself or better stated to start to learn how to play it!
    When I play I feel like a kindergarten teacher with 30 kids all running around and it is hard to keep an eye on each of them!

    And for long range goals, I hope to make a CO2 map and scenario...maybe "Bloody Christmas" Ortona '43!!
     
  2. Bullman

    Bullman Member

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    Hi koh,

    I am having trouble seeing how CO2 (or any other realtime game like it) could even be fundamentally be used as an operational layer that links Combat Mission battles together. Wouldn't a turn based game with discrete movement and combat encounters/casualties/factors be more suitable, like PzC you are already using? The natural discrete nature of movement and combat of turn based games naturally would allow for the pausing, processing and resumption of battles resolved using Combat Mission.

    Creating a new map/scenario for CO2 based on the battle for Ortana does sound interesting. Curious to know how it would play out compared to playing it using any other gaming system.
     
  3. kohlenklau

    kohlenklau Member

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    Hi Bullman,

    I guess only 1 reply (yours!) on this thread indicates a low interest in this type project. Not sure?

    If you re-read my post, yes, I made comment on the realtime aspect having no pause to shift over to CM with a clean break.
    But being new to CO2 I wanted to ask as maybe a real time mode is in the works for CO2 as part of a PBEM play style?
    As usual, it becomes a matter of the developer dropping focus/efforts somewhere to make something happen elsewhere of greater priority.

    Meanwhile with my limited time behind the CO2 wheel....
    I am imagining it could be coordinated by an umpire where the opponents play CO2 in realtime move their forces to approach to a set piece battle. Some CO2 aspects would play out with artillery fire, air attacks but at some point, the game is paused and a battle or battles are then transferred to the CM world.

    It is easy to discuss this but to actually do it seems much more difficult than my experience using John Tiller Panzer Campaign.
    Like I said, every system has its pluses and minuses....

    ORTONA: I actually started last night to begin the ESTAB editing. Creating Canadian forces circa December 1943.
     
  4. Bullman

    Bullman Member

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    Hi koh,

    I wouldn't place too much significance on the lack of responses as being anything to be surprised by given the very nature of this forum and the reason s why people would be visiting it. The concept of even discussing another game in this forum, let alone expecting readers to know anything about that game and discussing a concept of somehow using both together in such a manner as to create a "meta game" is quite unique to say the least, though I appreciate you just putting it out there anyway as I know you have put in much effort exploring this with other platforms.

    I think because of the real time/continuous/"analog" nature of CO2, as you said, it has no natural breaks/pauses/definitions for the start end of battles anyway which immediately makes it a poor choice for a platform where you would try to use Combat Mission to playout discrete battles and then feed those results back in to CO2. Just thinking of the effort to import/export data between the two games would be a nightmare, let alone impossible. There is no way now to even pause CO2, manually edit ESTABs of units, then resume the game and I don't think there ever will be.

    Look forward to how you go with your Ortana sceneario.
     
  5. kohlenklau

    kohlenklau Member

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    I did see in the features request that some folks have asked for the saved files to be editable in the scenario editor and Dave did reply that it would take some revising of the data fields to align those 2 file types.

    The ultimate game IMHO would be some flexible mesh between the op layers and the tac layer. A few nights ago I played a starter level scenario with Italians against the British in North Africa. To be able to pause and rack up even a small company on platoon encounter would be a blast. Of course we don't have the new CM in North Africa yet!

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Daz likes this.
  6. kohlenklau

    kohlenklau Member

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    I see that it could be constructed in a series of linked co2 scenarios. Umpire control with certain map triggers that would force a pause to shift to CM. It is not perfect but for the right group of players it could be enjoyable to make it happen.
    I have a protocol I call 10-10-10×10 which constrains the size of the operation with respect to time (turns of 2 hours), number of units on map and map size in km.

    The headcount tracking is not as bad as you think. I have special spreadsheets that aid me.
     
  7. kohlenklau

    kohlenklau Member

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    But on a similar note, I also have been thinking of just a CM tactical vignette that could be enjoyed along with a CO2 scenario. A very short, sharply focused CM scenario played if both games are owned or just a VAAR clip to watch on youtube.
     
  8. kipanderson

    kipanderson Member

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    Hi,


    All the usual suspects here ;).


    Always interested in this sort of idea.. No time tonight, just in from work.. more tomorrow night.


    All the best,

    Kip.
     
  9. kohlenklau

    kohlenklau Member

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    Hi kip!

    "CMCO2"
    I am seeing a large CO2 map but with inner VIRTUAL rectangles defining our CM battle boxes.
     
  10. kohlenklau

    kohlenklau Member

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    Did a test comparison between a CMFI GL Canadian Infantry Coy and a bftbestab British Inf Coy Group. Headcounts and E&S were a near perfect match. Have to sub in Thompsons, plus up brens and dial back piats.
     
  11. kohlenklau

    kohlenklau Member

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    This thread can sort of be my blog to rattle off my thinkings!

    5 separate CO2 scenarios phased over the operational timeframe. The lengths do not have to be the same and may be unknown until needed AFTER the CM tactical phase is completed and processed.

    Sure. It will not be easy. But nothing worthwhile is ever easy. So, how do we make CMCO2 so awesome that it IS worthwhile?
     
  12. kohlenklau

    kohlenklau Member

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    Maps:

    I am seeing some nice CO2 maps nearly at the 10km x 10km protocol level.
    The tactical exercise map, The Skorzeny map and Manhay map.
     
  13. kohlenklau

    kohlenklau Member

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    CMCO2

    CO2 Questions I need to read up on to find the answers.
    Q1 How tightly can you dial scenario time length? For example, Can you make a 32 minute scenario?
    Edit: A1 Hmm. Seems it can be set as a start date/time and end date/time and as long as the stop is after the start it didn't seem to have any minimum. BUT I am sure if the opponent is the AI then the shorter the scenario has a bad impact on the AI determining a plan. Also for the own side AI that carries out your orders. Maybe for just movements up to the line, this is not as big a concern...
    Q2 Can you have exit objectives?
    Edit: A2 I read in the scen editor manual that there can be exit objectives! Good.
     
    #13 kohlenklau, Aug 25, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2015
  14. kohlenklau

    kohlenklau Member

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    I wonder if these overly complex editors with an effing compile requirement are just a way to beat down the freeware scenarios and maps from the fan base and keep more folks hooked on the DLC smack sold outright.....
     
  15. kohlenklau

    kohlenklau Member

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    I guess I should have added a smiley at the end of that last post!
     
  16. kohlenklau

    kohlenklau Member

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    OK, this weekend I have dedicated the time to get my brain around the CO2 editors.
    I have a nice map of the Ortona area to make as a bitmap underlay.
    I have OOB info for my opposing forces.
    Make a couple pots of coffee and kick some a$$!
    Below is how I have had to do this Op+Tac using JTS Panzer Campaigns....
    [​IMG]
    EDIT: Maybe you will notice my Adriatic Sea is incorrectly UP to the north and NOT to the east like it should be....because I had to use a substitute look alike submap borrowed from the JTS Crete map because JTS doesn't allow the freedom to design a new map and this part of Italy has not been done by JTS. :D
     
    #16 kohlenklau, Aug 27, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2015
  17. kohlenklau

    kohlenklau Member

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    I have the Ortona underlay in place and have started the map layers...

    Spotting. I have to study more on how CO2 does spotting.
     
  18. kohlenklau

    kohlenklau Member

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    Farting around with the COTA Tactical Exercise scenario.

    Changed it to just 1 hour duration and took the Hussars up there as an initial recon force.

    Phase 1 ended and I can see from the post battle review screen the status of all my units to edit them into a Phase 2 CO2 or to develop a CM Tactical Battle. Some equivalencies or conversions must be decided upon.

    There was an axis AT platoon down the road in LOS of the hussars. It would have made a nice scenario.

    Problem: upon scenatio end you instantly see all the hidden enemy units.
    Solution: You don't play til the actual end but just shy. An umpire would then take the file to process it and rack up the follow on.
     
  19. kohlenklau

    kohlenklau Member

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    Like many games scenario editors. It is a story or play with act 1, act 2, etc.

    This could be packaged for single player download. At various checkpoints in the story you weigh your losses and instructions say to load scenario 2b.3 or somesuch fork in the road. The same with the CM battles. if you are at point dog with >80% forces, play "Battle Dog Baker" otherwise play "Battle Dog Able".

    Obviously small CO2 scenarios and smaller CM battles would be flexible to edit in the multiple options.
     
  20. kohlenklau

    kohlenklau Member

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    I had a thought. The haunted house aspect. That the phase 2 scenario should not be a flat 1 hour otherwise the player knows when the end is. It should be like a variable time CM scenario.

    Within a nominal 1 to 2 hour CO2 scenario, a reinforcement could arrive that would be named "scenario has ended".
     

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