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Fortifications and TEC: Observations and Questions

Qwirz

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Hi all!
Playing "Bloody Valley" and "Phoney War", the first two scenarios of WWII in chronological order(from HoB), I was faced with Fortifications. Lots of them. So I'm going deeper into them and consequently into the TEC and rules of every module I own (all but RoH) and many questions arised.
I'll try to give them an order being hopefully not too much annoying.
1 - Let's start with Wire and Bunker/Foxholes that on the TEC type column are classified as "OPEN". Does this mean that, for Spotting/LOS purposes, we have to ignore the DEGRADING/BLOCKING terrain eventually present in their hex? If not, would it not be better define them "Per Terrain in Hex and Rules" as made for Hills?
2 - Similar question for HoB Dead Cows: module rules state they "are considered OPEN for spotting and LOS purposes". But also if for ex. in Light Wood or
Wheat Field?
3 - And: HoB Bomb Craters "are considered DEGRADING terrain for spotting and LOS purposes". Actually this could mean bombing devoided the hex of any other terrain.......but next line states that BC MP cost is added to the one of the terrain in the hex. So, is movement cost the only hex characteristic which survives?
4 - What about Fortifications on Road? Is it still allowed to "ignore the cost of other terrain if moving along a road" if its hex contains for ex. Bomb Craters, Foxholes, Bunkers etc. Surely we can't ignore Wire on the road but it is the only fortification that has it's own movement cost.
5 - Is it possible to set up EVERY TYPE of Fortification in the following hexes: Cemetery, Road, Marsh, Ford, Bridge, Vehicle/Wreck, Rice Paddy, Soccer Field, Soccer Field Stands, Rough or Railroad Track??? Probably there are no scenarios in which this possibility will ever occur but I have not played all of them...YET! ;-)
6 - May Trenches, Roadblocks and Tank Emplacements co-exist with other Fortifications?
7 - May Trenches and Tank Emplacements be set up in any hex?
8 - DJ: Russian Wheat Fields "do not hinder LOS but MMCs, SMCs and WT in a WF must be spotted as if they were in degrading terrain". I can't understand the rationale behind this rule. Brush/Flowers degrade LOS, why russian WF not, being also degrading for spotting purposes? Or it should be read "Russian WF do not BLOCK LOS (as the standard WF does!!!) but treat them as degrading hex?

And now some suggestions to make, IMHO, the TEC more...consistent(hope it's the right term!)
(Point 1 above and...)
9 - I would change all "GROUND LEVEL" definitions in "LEVEL 0". (10.11 NBO use the term Level 0 too)
10 - I would change the Hill level definition "Per height of terrain" in "Level One, Two or Three plus height of other terrain in hex".
Now a Clear-Level 2-Hill hex results in a Ground Level hex!!! Changing, it becomes a Level 2 hex. A Level 2 Hill-Forest-Hex is a Level 4 hex.....and so on!
(Buildings are defined Level One or Two and in FH and HotG Hills are defined Level One....)
Thanks for taking the time to read this
LnL is a great game!!!

Cheers all

Ruben
 
Last edited:
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I'll have a shot here and say how my small group of friends play the above instances:
#1 #2 #3 LOS as per existing terrain in the hex (how the hell in common sense for example can a foxhole negate a wood???)
#4 go with common sense i.e. craters would negate the road as they damage it, fox holes would not effect it (private Smith thinks to himself "should I dig my foxhole in middle of the metalled road or along aside it"...hmmm),bunkers are not generally built in a road way but along side it etc
#5 again common sense rules, i.e. It's not usual to have a concrete bunker built in a swamp etc
#6 no rule against it so yup
#7 see #5 i.e. why put tank traps in a swamp etc
#8 a scenario specific rule, at that time crops were not fully mature so didn't block LOS completely but allowed troops to crouch down and use them as cover from being seen
#9 & #10 no comment
It's only a game and within my group of players where rules are blurry we use common sense we don't want an ASL rule book (plus we're not playing for sheep stations!)' we'll stand to be corrected on the above but we'll follow such guidelines as they makes sense to us :)
Cheers!
 

Qwirz

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Thanks for your inputs, Cap!
I agree with you for the most part.
Although I think that "common sense" can actually differ from one player to another (for ex. I will not place a bunker in marsh or on a Railroad, as you said, but mines and wires I will!).
Perhaps some official statement about all this stuff could help!
I should split the questions and post them one at a time!!!:)
Thanks again!
 

Jeff Lewis

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Hi Ruben,
It seem as if you are trying to invent ambiguities where none really exist. From your questions it's as if you are just looking at the TEC without regard for the rules or a scenario's special rules that address these concerns and making assumptions base hypothetical situations that have not or will never occur in a game of LnL.
I'm happy to answer any questions, but it would be better if they were tied to a specific game situation in a scenario instead of arbitrary speculation upon viewing the TEC. I understand you are learning the system, and I think the more you play the more you will see how simple and intuitive it is.
Of #9, Ground Level and Level-0 are interchangeable.
Of #10, you are confusing terrain elevation here. A Level-2 Hill is a Level-2 Hill. Simple. If there's a Forest on it, it's still a Level-2 Hill; it's elevation, for LOS purposes, is Level-4 (the top of the trees).
Best,
Jeff
 

Qwirz

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Ok Jeff, thanks for your answer!
I'd like to say that I'm not "inventing" anything but I'm just looking for some general rules (I'm not able to find!) in order to avoid to break every future game to question about this and that.
Rules are made properly to avoid that each player interprets them as he likes, and I'm not inclined in resolving doubts rolling a die.
Probably I'm the only one who likes unambiguous rulebooks but "C'mon Guy, though this is not clearly written, with a little brain effort I'm sure you'll find your way" is not the kind of answer I expect from a Game Editor or Rule Writer. I'm a bit used to wargames to find an answer, but I'm interested in YOUR answer, the answer of he who wrote (or is editing and fixing) the Rules, who playtested the game, who knows the rationale behind and is sure the "answer" works well for the game we like to play.
One of the nicer aspects of games is rules discussing and helping others in clearly understand gameplay. That's why game communities also stand for.
My fault was probably to stuff my thread with too much questions and I agree that perhaps we'll never have the chance to see Dead Cows appearing in a Ford, but I'm quite sure others of my questions are more than licit.
I'll pose them individually hoping to appear more clear and "concrete", in order to have the answers I'm looking for, enjoying my games ever more.
Cheers

Ruben
 

Jeff Lewis

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Hi Ruben,

Sorry for my delayed response.

The sort of situations you are seeking answers for are exactly the types of things that very rarely, if ever, occur, or can never occur.

It is other people on this and other forums who have given you snarky answers, not me, so I don't care to be impugned and misrepresented they way you have written about me in your last post RE "not the kind of answer I expect from a Game Editor or Rule Writer". I stand by my comment about you inventing ambiguities, however (especially RE #5). But if it's chapter-and-verse answers you want, I will provide them.

1) Already says as per terrain in v4.0 and v4.1. And in all rules sections it states TMs are cumulative (up to 4 unless a Sniper in hex alone)

2 and 3) Same as #1. Not on any TEC yet. But again, and I can't help it here, but how can a placed terrain negate the Forest or Wheat Field it is in? Does this really require a sentence in the rule book?

4) Bomb Craters and Foxholes can't be in same hex (21.13, IDD mod rules). Bomb Craters do affect movement (21.13); Dead Cows do not (21.12). For all others, TEC and core rules have it covered. (LnL is not so specific that you can say your Bunker is precisely on the Road, etc., thus it's as per other terrain) A hex is 50 meters across. Roadblocks prevent vehicles and affect movement and TM as per counters and mod rules.

5) Really? You answer your own question in your question.

6) Yes (setting many of these things up together would be counterintuitive, e.g., why would you put a Trench in a Stone Building hex? You're already maxed out on TM at 4.)

7) Yes (if the rules don't say no, the answer is yes)

8) Mod-Specific rule (10.8) for summer immature wheat in Russia (clearly defined in Dark July). I don't see what the problem is here.

9) Ground level and Level-0 are clearly the same thing and interchangeable.

10) This is misguided. A level-2 Hill with a Forest in it could not be level-4 because the units are not on top of the trees. It's at an elevation of 4 for spotting. This is where the distinction between level and elevation come in to play.

Enjoy the game, Ruben.

Best,
Jeff
 

Qwirz

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Jeff,
Your answer arrives just the day after I received my HoP copy.
I'm glad to see many of my doubts clarified in this new LnL edition.
Fortifications are now defined as "per other terrain in hex" and hills are "Level one, two, three".
I still have a doubt about Bomb Craters playing IDD scenario "Beneath the scythe":
Per special rule they can be set up in any hex. What if a BC (degrading terrain) is set up in a blocking terrain hex (building, forest, wheat field....)? Is it still degrading (bombs destroyed the feature) or it becomes blocking (craters are scattered around the feature)?
Russian WF: I still can't understand why they are degrading just for spotting and not for LOS purposes....
Don't be annoyed, please and
Don't get me wrong: I would like to say that all the questions, doubts, observations are done without any sense of negative criticism. Just to try to totally exploit (one of ) my favorite system.
Thanks!!!
Ruben
 

Jeff Lewis

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Russian WF: I still can't understand why they are degrading just for spotting and not for LOS purposes....

Degrading for spotting because there is still, in theory, plow rows, etc., for soldiers to lay prone against, making best use of cover.

As always, if you disagree with a rule, don't use it; house rule it.
 

Qwirz

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Read the SSR closely, Ruben. All clearly stated where they can be placed.
....all I can read is that +1 Bomb Craters can be placed in any NON-BUILDING hex.....
so....what about other blocking terrain as Forest and Wheat Field...?
 

Ralph Ferrari

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....all I can read is that +1 Bomb Craters can be placed in any NON-BUILDING hex.....
so....what about other blocking terrain as Forest and Wheat Field...?

If the hex doesn't have a building in it, you can place the bomb crater.
 

Jeff Lewis

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From the SSR: After each attack, roll 1d6: if the result is odd, the British player can place one Dead Cows marker in any Clear-terrain hex in the FFE’s impact area; if the result is even, the German player can place one Bomb Craters +1TM marker in any non-Building hex within the FFE’s impact area or one Bomb Crater +2TM marker in any Clear-terrain hex within the FFE’s impact area. The TM of either Bomb Craters or Dead Cows is cumulative with Foxholes, Wrecks, etc., in a hex.

Then you place it in the hex and the Craters' +1 TM is cumulative with terrain in the hex. +2 Craters have to go in Clear terrain.
 

Qwirz

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Thanks my friends.
This was quite clear. The obscure point to me is: Being BC DEGRADING terrain, what happens to the BLOCKING terrain hex (non-building) it eventually is placed in? For LOS and SPOTTING purposes, should the hex be considered BLOCKING or DEGRADING?
Cheers
Ruben
 
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