Has anyone tried out a bypass movement house rule?

Discussion in 'LnLT House Rules' started by Echo419, Jul 9, 2020.

  1. Echo419

    Echo419 Member

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    For those who don't know what that is, it's where you can move a unit along a hex's hexide, vertex to vertex to bypass certain terrain to save on movement costs. It's a rule in ASL, but I was considering trying it out as a house rule in LnL tactical for fun to see if throws the balance totally out of whack or not. I also just like the idea of being able to do it in the LnL system, it's not an overly complex rule so I think it could fit.

    That said scenarios aren't created with this in mind so I'm sure it may mess up the balance a bit.
     
  2. Stéphane Tanguay

    Stéphane Tanguay Moderator
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    I would not worry too much about scenario balance (although some of them might be affected) as much as opening a whole new can of worms. Having acted as the unnofical FAQ keeper for a long time, I can tell you that, probably because of it's relative simplicity, most LNLT rules are closely tied to one or another and it's most probable that if you make a little change here, then you will have to make another one there, and then you will need to explain why this unit can and this one cannot, and so on.
     
  3. Echo419

    Echo419 Member

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    I figured that would also be an issue too. Usually I wouldn't be looking to house rule anything in LnL tactical because I think the rules are fine how they are, but I really like this specific idea. I get what you mean though, make a small change and it could domino effect fast to get it to work. I think I might give it a try though for fun. I play mainly solo anyways so I don't have to worry about finding an opponent willing to try it :).
     
  4. Thommygunner

    Thommygunner Member

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    That is a great question! But, if they add bypass, then do they add vehicular bypass? Dash? MG Fire Lanes? Wall Advantage? Multi-hex Firegroups?Concealment? Blind Fire? Rate of Fire?Or, the goofy Sherman rule about getting multiple hits with HE because their 75 was so good at shooting HE Let's start the ASL IFT vs IIFT debate by advocating to abolish the rule that each additional MMC in a stack only contributes only half of their FP in a stack that fires together.

    Don't get me wrong, I have certainly wished I could do all these things in LnLT, especially bypass. I just appreciate that LnLT has done a great job of capturing the essense of what SL/ASL intended but threw out the things that slow play down to an agonizing crawl through the terrain and the rulebook. Don Greenwood, one of the founding fathers of ASL, put it best in saying to stick to what the rules say can be done. If they don't say that something can be done, then it can't be done( Of course, I think that he was tired of fielding questions about every 'what if' under the sun.)

    I do have my disagreements with LnLT's rules also. Like with open hatches on vehicles. As long as the armor stops bullets and fragments, how does thicker armor protect a crew better than thinner armor? Having head and shoulders sticking out should be just as dangerous for the commander of a Tiger as it is for a PzIV commander. I think that all open vehicle crews should just get a flat +1 or +2 modifier. I feel that this is an unrealistic rule since the PzIV's one inch of rear armor stops bullets as well as the Tiger's two inches of back side armor.(2 cm vs 4 cm more properly.)

    Thanks for letting my spout on the subject of bringing ASL rules and concepts into LnLT. Just to let you know, it took me 30 min to nail down that Sherman multiple hit deal in the rulebook. ASL lost its luster for me when Forgotten War, the Korean module, came with scenarios that had two pages of scenario special rules each.I'll take the smooth fast gameplay of LnLT over the clunky mechanics of ASL any day, even if some scenarios have a few special rules.
     
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  5. Stéphane Tanguay

    Stéphane Tanguay Moderator
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    Changes are coming :)
     
  6. Echo419

    Echo419 Member

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    I enjoyed your take on the subject. 2 pages of SSR with Forgotten War? That seems excessive even by ASL standards. I really don't disagree with you for the most part. I wouldn't want to just start adding ASL concepts willy nilly into LnLT.

    LnLT already covers some of those concepts its own way anyways. There are no multi-hex fire groups, but a leader can activate his surrounding hexes and have them fire during the same impulse. The FP can't be combined between hexes, but the benefit of two (or more) attempts at firing in a single impulse makes up for it. You can't dash, but honestly units wouldn't be dilly dallying in combat anyways so the normal movement for moving across a road hex is fine by me. Concealment is something that I think works best as a SSR (I feel like I remember seeing a scenario with something like concealment as a SSR in one of the modules).

    The only reason I want to give bypass movement a try is because sometimes I'll be looking at a two building hexes with a gap between them in the artwork and think to myself "Man I'd love it if I could just have my guys go between instead". You can fire between them, why not move? Plus, it really wouldn't make the game slower. As for vehicular bypass, I suppose that'd be something I could try as well since I see it as just an extension of bypass movement. To be clear, I'm not advocating for the rule to be officially added to LnLT. I just want to give it a try in my own play.

    Thank you for mentioning the stuff about armor in LnL tactical, I never gave it a thought before.

    @Stéphane Tanguay
    You mean like the rules are going to 5.1?
     
  7. Stéphane Tanguay

    Stéphane Tanguay Moderator
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    It is kind of funny because, for a long time, the main reason why the previous rules Czar did not want to allow fire between buildings was exactly this; he said people would start to ask for by-pass movement, saying that if they can shoot between them, they can move between them. We had long debates and I really thought there was no basis to his argument; and yet, there you are :)

    Maybe not 5.1 but at least an updated version of the LNLT Clarifications & Corrections document that will not focus only on scenarios and ciounters but also on rules, amongst other things. And before you ask : No, I don,t know when this will be available :)
     
  8. Echo419

    Echo419 Member

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    Awe man I'm sorry haha. I didn't mean to that guy. But hey I haven't seen any other post about bypass movement here or elsewhere for LnL (that's why I made the post) so at least I'm the only one that brought it up :). Again I wouldn't want the rules changed officially (not unless it was properly tested, didn't overly complicate movement rules, and there was actually a consensus among players desiring or at least okay with its inclusion.), at most it may be fun as an optional rule but that still might be opening the metaphorical "can of worms".
     
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  9. Captain Darling

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    House rule all you want, hell we play with some in our group but let’s try not to break what is an elegant system and turn it into an ASL monster (I have played ASL so am talking from experience). I’ve just seen some other suggested rules changes in the main forum and have left my comments on them are we going to add chrome for chromes sake? I hope not.
     
  10. Thommygunner

    Thommygunner Member

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    Rereading this thread made me wonder, if bypass is given to infantry, then it would need to be given to vehicles, and I don't want to go down the hex vertice rabbit hole. Also, I think balance could be affected as many moves would 30 - 50 % farther than they would be without bypass. To compensate there would need to further rule additions like subsequent op fire and final protective op fire.

    Again, there have many times where I wished I could bypass or superimpose other ASL concepts on LnL, I won't deny it. Just today playing digital, I lost an M-1 to a BMP-1 in the front. There's no way for that to happen in ASL(not they have even gotten close 1985 vehicles or concepts). I accept LnL for what it is, and thank the makers that they are conscious not to make it the rulebook slog that is ASL.
     
  11. Nicolas Michon

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    Hello guys,
    I've house-ruled it pretty extensively to fit my own obsessions, but the system is so robust it did not break.
    My main changes:
    - all WTs (MGs or not) fight in Melee like "0" FP crew. I could tweak that to allow MGs to use 1/2 FP for the first round only;
    - rocket & missile launchers can fire from building hexes (which represent a group of buildings with roofs, corners, etc.) BUT if they do and are marked fired,the TM drops to +1. Otherwise, modern games get very weird (with infantry having trouble getting good positions, and designers adding rubble markers to create such positions).
    - Open vehicles are treated like soft vehicles when targeted by infantry fire, but with a +2 TM;
    - Snipers can move a maximum of 3 hexes. Terrain is not doubled for them BUT units, except snipers, trying to spot them get a +2 penalty as long as they don't move from their initial position. They must ALSO be spotted (except by mortars & other snipers) after they have fired, but lose the +2;
    - Artillery can damage closed vehicles: it uses an opposed roll, against the highest armor, capped at 8 (artillery can seriously mess up tracks, comms & optics).
    With those changes, the system works fine. I also have more advanced armor damage rules which I can share if people are interested, for tank heavy scenarios and experienced players.
     

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