Help me come to terms with hex and silhouette terrain rules . . .

Discussion in 'LnLT Rule Questions & Clarifications' started by Ty Snouffer, Feb 25, 2017.

  1. Ty Snouffer

    Ty Snouffer Member

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    Very much enjoying my recent LnLT play. Great fun in a system with reasonable overhead. Coming from other system (CoH particular) I'm used to having binary hex terrain. The introduction, to me at least, of silhouette terrain in addition to the hex terrain throws me from time to time.

    It does seem to lead to some unexpected LOS situations consider the following when tracing LOS:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    It has been tough to me to suss that 2 is not blocked, while 1 and 3 are. Should I just roll with it and say "it is just a game" and deal with the abstract-ness of it?

    The other thing I think of is about this level of precision. I've been playing on VASSAL mostly so I have the benefit of an exact LOS tool. I worry about how this translates into a live setting with physical components. Seems it would be really hard to get that precise with a string or the like.

    Talk me off the ledge on this one.
     
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  2. Qwirz

    Qwirz Member

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    Hi Ty!
    If you want to know my way, there are only TWO rules from 4.1 I can't apply to my LnL games. This is the first, since it looks absurd to me the kind of situations it can create (like the ones you pointed). Rules always refer to silhouettes and I think this rule could be fair just in the case of LOS running along a hexside between two Forest/Jungle hexes that occasionally not touch trees depiction.
    The second one is the odds rounded up in favor of the "attacker" in melee. Never seen in over thirty years of gaming and the reason for it to keep consistence of all fractions rounded up through all the rules sounds poor.
    To each his own!
    Cheers

    Ruben
     
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  3. Jeff Lewis

    Jeff Lewis Designer

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    As for #1 is obvious as to it being blocked. For #3, it's about LOS along hexsides. There has to be consistency. Further, if you allow fired along that hexside (down those "alleys") then you have to allow movement; and you open up a huge can of rules/worms there as to stacking, Op Fire, where in space are the units . . . it's a mess. Keep is simple. As for #2, I think the cases of it are few and far between (and don't go showing me how many places it can happen as you have to have gameplay to make it happen). As always, it's just a game and they are just rules, and thus the suggested way of playing. If you don't like a rule, don't use it--as long as you and your opponent agree.
     
  4. Ty Snouffer

    Ty Snouffer Member

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    "if you allow fired along that hexside (down those "alleys") then you have to allow movement;"

    Hmmm, I'm not sure why that would be the case.

    "it's just a game and they are just rules, and thus the suggested way of playing"

    I can live with that advice . . . thanks
     
  5. Cottonbaler

    Cottonbaler Member

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    Ty,

    I House Rule example No. 3 to allow fire along the hex spine between two silhouettes when the LOS/LOF doesn't touch either of them. I modify it though by counting both hexes as degrading terrain.
     
  6. Captain Darling

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    Okay Ty I have not read version 4.1 of the rules (waiting for my Heroes of North Africa to arrive so I can enjoy it then...hint hint) anyway for our games we have a mutual understanding that only when the LOS actually crosses the terrain i.e. the silhouette is the LOS blocked. Samples 2 and 3 above would be clear shots and opportunity fire along the hex side would be fine. Hex sides are blocked when terrain crosses them.

    House Rules RULE (when like in this instance they make sense)! :happy:

    Rubén I look forward to reading the rounding rule you mention :)...
     
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  7. Ryan Higgins

    Ryan Higgins Member

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    Evidently, I missed something in the rules since I have been playing #2 as blocked all along. I'll have to go back and re-read the rules for clarity. That being said, I like the house rule the good Captain is using.
     
  8. Mike Nagel

    Mike Nagel Member

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    Ty,

    I'm glad I'm not alone in this. I posted the same question over on CSW some time ago. It's a weird situation that I've been house-ruling for some time. Basically, as long as the LOS doesn't touch the art, you can fire at the target.

    If it were up to me, I'd simplify LOS even further and state that all depicted terrain is assumed to fully fill a hex and that when firing between hexes, LOS is only blocked with both sides of the LOS touch blocking (or sufficient degrading) terrain hexes. This eliminates arguments about whether or not LOS skims that "leaf" in woods or downspout in building terrain. In this case, all of your examples would be blocked. But that's just me.

    I think I totally missed the melee rounding up issue as well ...
     
  9. Jeff Lewis

    Jeff Lewis Designer

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    If you are playing that it's a clear unmodified shot b/tw those Buildings, then logically you have to maintain that there is space enough for infantry (and even a vehicle) to move in that space. With rules (as written), there has to be consistency. Obviously, you are free to house rule the entire game system if you want. I'm just providing clarity to the rule as written. If you allow fire in that space, you have to allow movement, and that creates a rules mess of stacking, MP-cost, can they end an impulse there, etc, and on and on. Total headache.
     
  10. Mike Nagel

    Mike Nagel Member

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    Jeff,

    I hate to be a PITA (think of me as a small, but friendly pit-bull that's latched on to your pant leg ... grrrrrrrr) about this, but the rules as currently written defy the consistency that you're trying to achieve in that Ty's samples #2 and #3 are both true according the the rules as written. In the first case, there is enough space to see between the buildings (and therefore open up the question of movement between them), whereas there is not enough space in the second case. It's this simple contradiction (inconsistency) that needs to be corrected.

    This issue can be corrected either by

    1) Allowing fire between buildings in all cases (so examples #2 and #3 would both be valid), with the added restriction that even though LOS exists, movement does not (no ASL-style bypass movement in LnL:T). I think this is perfectly reasonable according to (IIRC) Henry's Knox's view that you "don't leave an (potentially) occupied fortress behind you" (to paraphrase his comments at the battle of Germantown).

    2) Do not allow fire between buildings in hexes in any case (so examples #2 and #3 would both be invalid). This is the simplest way to handle LOS, but it has to apply to all blocking and degrading terrain in that any part of the hex, not just the artwork, is LOS affective. This would make LOS work more like Tide of Iron where LOS is affected if it crosses any part of the hex and if both sides of the LOS (not necessarily adjacent hexes as in the examples above) include affecting terrain. This is probably the simplest way to resolve the issue and it eliminates questions about whether or not LOS is really blocked by that smidgeon of a tree-branch or water-spout. However, it may drastically change the nature of some of the scenarios, which is why option #1 is really the best way to go (in retrospect to my previous comment).

    3) Allow bypass? Hell, no! You may as well include "skulking" as well. :-(

    My several cents ... :)

    -- M
     
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  11. Jeff Lewis

    Jeff Lewis Designer

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    I'm talking explicitly about the "along a hexside LOS", and for that I'm am entirely being consistent. Situation #2 is a separate thing; and the solution to that, going forward, will be Buildings that take up more space in the hex. Look, we either have whole-hex terrain or we don't. If you don't like situation #2, play whole hex. Simple solution.
     
  12. Jeff Lewis

    Jeff Lewis Designer

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    I have two pit bulls, and they don't behave this way. They are the sweetest, kindest dogs (as are all of them when in a loving home and with proper training and socialization--like pretty much every other dog).
     
  13. Captain Darling

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    The way I see it movement is allowed between the buildings already the 2MP paid to enter the hex is either; spending extra to move through through the house/building or spend the extra carefully navigating around it...I've not been a fan of the other 'games' rules bypass movement hell in reality your rate of progress is hampered if you move through the house but it is also slowed by taking extra time walking to the side and trying to 'squeeze' between houses (you still get some protection by hugging the walls or you can be deemed to duck into the building if fired on). Vehicles still can try to bulldoze through if they're timber buildings as already in the rules if they're stone buildings then tanks can fire through the gap but can't move through cause they aren't allowed in stone building hexes...

    This is just the way we play...no sheep stations on the line here just keeping the fun up and complexity down...:)...
     

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