How to use HQs?

Discussion in 'Command Ops Series' started by Bullman, Apr 10, 2015.

  1. Bullman

    Bullman Member

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    Hi,

    I have been starting off with smallish scenarios to get basics right before I tackle the bigger battles (not that I think they are "better" per se than the smaller manageable scenarios.

    It has occurred to me that I am not sure if I have been using HQ unit to their full potential.

    The battles I have been playing, apart from more strategic "move entire unit formation here" type orders, have involved giving individual orders to subordinate units of HQs (or groups of units without any HQ unit).

    If I have say a battalion HQ with the three infantry companies, a PzGren company and a mortar unit under it's command, what kind of "bonuses" am I forgoing if I decide to create battlegroups that don't include the HQ unit?

    By creating battlegroups, technically the subordinate units become "detached" and I believe subordinate to the highest "ranking" unit in that battlegroup. How does this nominated battlegroup commander unit affect things?

    I understand that HQ units are not line units and therefore not the first units you consider to do all the fighting for you when planning any attack. I typically never have them actually engage the enemy however if I include hem in any battlegroup with an attack order, I believe they will to some degree.

    So am I using HQs correctly? What are some examples where you would want to include a HQ in a battalion/company level attack?
     
  2. Daz

    Daz Member

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    There may be other hidden bonuses when you include HQ's into the formation but their primary importance is in the command delay times they help to reduce, especially when commanding organic units.
    This is a big wall of text from the Command Ops 1 Game Manual that will go a long way to helping you under stand the relationship between the HQ's and the units they command....I hope.
    It does take a lot of digesting I must admit, and I'm not 100% sure I have grasped all there is to know about it myself yet :rolleyes:
    Orders-Delay.jpg
     
  3. Daz

    Daz Member

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    This is something I have knocked up in the past that may also help:
    Hofen-attachments.jpg
     
  4. Daz

    Daz Member

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    These also:
    Command-Dist-Map.jpg
    Command-Range-2.jpg
     
    Iconoclast likes this.
  5. Bullman

    Bullman Member

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    Wow! Awesome info. Thanks.
     
  6. alcamatraz

    alcamatraz Member

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    Thanks a lot for these, this was really helpful!
     
  7. Bullman

    Bullman Member

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    Unless there is more to it, it seems that the main influence HQs have are on orders delay.

    Still trying to make sense of it all.

    I did a few tests. I gave individual orders to companies belonging to a battalion that was part of a regiment , that was part of a division HQ (on map boss).

    I saw the LOAD on the division HQ increase if I gave individual orders to the companies, all the others remained the same. Why was this the case?

    It says "The sender is the most immediate organic superior, of at least two levels up, within command range for that fore size."

    So I am guessing "the sender" in this case would be the Bn HQ?

    Anyway, I tried to see what it would take to increase the orders delay on the company unit by moving all the HQs far away from it. I was unable to change the time it took between giving a move order and the time the unit actually started moving, which was typically 30-35 min.

    What am I doing "wrong"?
     
  8. Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor

    Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor Panther Games Designer

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    Bullman,

    I'm not sure I understand what you are asking. A picture (screen dump) would help.
     
  9. Daz

    Daz Member

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    I'm going to have a shot at answering your questions mate, but can't guarantee I have them all correct. Will need Dave to step in to correct anything I say that's wrong.
    No two levels up form Coy is Regiment.
    That's how it works for units under AI control. i.e. an AI controlled Regiment will be the sender of the Coy's in its formation. If there were Platoons in the Battalions then I guess it would be the Bn HQ who is the sender for them.
    If you give orders directly to a unit or formation, then that load is attributed directly to the on map boss, which to all intents and purposes is you as the player.

    I could be wrong with this one, but if you were giving the Coy in your test direct orders then the sender was the on map boss, or in this test the Div HQ, and they have a very large range, able to cover the whole map in most medium sized scenarios, especially if they are both a motorized unit.
    Try reattaching it to its organic formation, with the Regimental HQ well out of max range, and see if that makes a difference.
    You may have to run the game for a few minutes for the command info to update.
     
    #9 Daz, Apr 15, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2015
  10. Bullman

    Bullman Member

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    Sorry left this hanging a bit.

    [​IMG]

    Here is a link to the saved file of the test.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/a09kp4knkags9p5/delay.cog?dl=0

    Basically this company unit operates without any bonus/penalty despite being 11-12km away from any HQ unit in its chain. Is this as intended?
     
  11. Daz

    Daz Member

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    Well acording to Pythagoras' Theorem:
    The square of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the squares of the two shorter sides.
    In this case, this means that is equal to 9² + 13².
    So they are about 15.8km apart.

    The sender is the Division which has a max range of 12km and an effective range of 9km for non mot units.
    So if the command delay doesn't change when you are closer to the Division base, then you may well have found a problem.
     
  12. Bullman

    Bullman Member

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    This issue never really was resolved.

    In summary, I have an example of a detached non-motorized infantry company approximately 15.8 km from it's battalion, regimental and the map boss divisional HQ. When I give it movement orders directly, the orders delay is just the 31 minutes that is indicated in it's Force/Cmd tab.

    Shouldn't this unit suffer orders delay penalties for essentially being isolated from any and all off its HQs? It is well beyond the 12km range for Div HQ to non-motorized units.
     
  13. Daz

    Daz Member

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    Does the orders delay in the Force/Cmd tab change when you bring the unit within range of its parent formation?
     
  14. Bullman

    Bullman Member

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    Apparently not. What I have noticed is that if I select a company unit and give it an order (and hence have it detach from it's HQ), the Force/Cmd tab does change regardless of range. eg. It may show Unit Delay=10, Force Delay=10 when prior to the order, and then show Unit Delay=30, Force Delay=30 after the order is given (and detached).

    What is however more surprising is that if I now delete/cancel the order, it will show Unit Delay=10, Force Delay=10 even though it is still detached. Also, if the unit is given a movement order and it completes the movement order, it will typically show Unit Delay=30, Force Delay=30 however if you just select the unit and press DELETE (apparently deleting nothing) it will then show Unit Delay=10, Force Delay=10.

    Reattaching the unit in any instance (regardless of range to any HQ) will result in the Unit Delay=10, Force Delay=10.

    One thing that came to mind from a UI point of view when doing these checks, I really think that when you view a units Force Tab it should show you it's current C2 status or who are in it's chain of command vertically.
     
  15. Daz

    Daz Member

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    Yeah that would be a nice feature.
    Sometimes you have to let the game run for a bit in order for the command delay times to update when detaching and reattaching.
    Probably for as long as the command delay as this is when it will receive its new orders and its new command delay.
     
  16. Bullman

    Bullman Member

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    So you think I have not been waiting long enough to observe what WILL happen eventually? None of the observations I have made look out of place otherwise?
     
  17. Daz

    Daz Member

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    It sounds like something in not working right.
    Just going through the elimination process with you.
     
  18. Daz

    Daz Member

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    I have been playing with your save and can confirm that the distance, at least for a detached single unit, makes no difference to the command delay for that unit.
    This contradicts the information in the game manual that indicates it does.
    So either its not working as intended or the feature was dropped some time ago.

    For me at least its not a major issue.
    So long as there is some kind of command delay in place, that increments with command load on the on map boss that's all I care about.
    Other people may think its more important than me though, I understand that.

    Good catch Bullman :)
     
  19. Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor

    Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor Panther Games Designer

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    I just did a bit of a search of the code and can confirm that yes we did turn off the range attenuation. I also have to admit that my comments in the code are not really that helpful in explaining why. The attenuation code was embedded in another function that was replaced holus bolus. Let me ponder this for a bit. Good catch.
     
  20. Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor

    Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor Panther Games Designer

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    Did some more investigating. I believe the thinking at the time when it was removed was that the time it took to send orders by radio made distance irrelevant given the normal size of our battlefields. The concept of a command range is more relevant when physical contact is required for the transmission of orders. Now I know that this did occur but did so more at the outset of a battle not during it. Moreover commanders and their liaison officers would often go to the subordinate HQ to deliver the order. We don't model these individual commanders and liaison officers.

    My feeling on the issue right now is that applying a range modifier to the orders delay would be valid in only a few cases of all the orders sent. Trying to come up with an algorithm as to when that should occur is going to be difficult. Applying the modifier all the time is probably an unjust impost on all orders. Applying it on a random basis would just frustrate players. So on balance I think we should just leave it as is.
     

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