HQ's leading the charge

Discussion in 'CO2 - Game Support' started by ironsight, Nov 12, 2015.

  1. ironsight

    ironsight Member

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    overloon.jpg Playing Overloon part 1 and I have ordered a probe and a couple of attacks. None of them had intermediate FUP's as I decided to leave that to the AI. In all three cases the HQ is pretty far out in front of all the sub units. I vaguely recall this being a problem a long time ago but thought it was fixed. Is this still common?

    In the attached pic you can see TF Brown HQ in the lower left is way out ahead of the rest of the units in a Probe of Overloon. Toward the middle you can see TF Johansen HQ and 87th Cavalry Recon Sq HQ are also out ahead of their units.


    overloon.jpg
     
    #1 ironsight, Nov 12, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 17, 2015
  2. ironsight

    ironsight Member

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    Restarted Overloon part 1 and this time I made 3 attacks that included a manually assigned FUP. In all 3 attacks the HQ stayed back. So it appears that letting the AI run the attack without specifying a FUP manually is what caused the problem I saw above. Not a definitive test but it looks to me like that is the answer.
     
  3. Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor

    Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor Panther Games Designer

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    ironside, great feedback. Could you please do another couple of runs without setting the FUP. Save the game after you have issued the order. Then let these get to the point where it has developed the plan and check to see if the HQ is heading off by itself. It should be heading to a safe reserve location. What I suspect is that either the location or the route to it is no good. So you will need to select the HQ, then its task objective and see the route that its taken. A screen dump at this point would help. It would be good to nail this on the head. Thanks.
     
  4. ironsight

    ironsight Member

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    TF Erlenbusch HQ out front.jpg I ran an Overloon test this morning. Started the scenario and gave TF Brown an attack order to the Stevensbeek Woods with no FUP. The TF moved out and when the HQ got to a point just north of the monastery it stopped while the rest of the TF attacked the woods. So far so good.

    I also gave TF Erlenbusch an order to attack Vortum, again with no FUP. The TF moved out and cleared 1 Coy KG Segler out of Sambeek with the HQ about in the middle of the formation. At that point the Erlenbusch HQ took the lead in the assault as you can see in the screenshot. It halted for a while after coming under fire and then continued down the road leading the attack. Not long after that it came under increased fire and finally decided it would be safer at the rear of the attack, retreating back into Sambeek.

    TF Erlenbusch HQ out front.jpg

    I ran this again and got pretty much the same results so this should be pretty easy to replicate if you want to run it yourself. If that is not of any help, let me know and I'll try another test to find a more definitive example of an HQ with no manual FUP leading the charge.
     
    #4 ironsight, Nov 16, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 17, 2015
  5. Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor

    Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor Panther Games Designer

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    Thanks for that ironside. When the HQs headed off out front what task were the other units doing - ie the original assault force> Were they still assaulting or had they been given a move order to the objective? What I am trying to determine here is if the objective had been deemed achieved and hence the force switched to a Move task.
     
  6. ironsight

    ironsight Member

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    It's been a while since I played so I'm not exactly sure how to determine their tasks. However from the attached screenshot it looks to me like they all have Move orders except the HQ. At least I think that's what the black arrows mean, except for the HQ that looks like it has the Attack arrow. If you need more info just let me know.

    ERL tasks.jpg
     
  7. Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor

    Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor Panther Games Designer

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    Yep you are right. So it looks like they have determined the objective is achieved and that they can simply Move to it. This is not done in formation because you never know where everyone will be and we issue different orders to the reserve/HQ and the assault troops. Often the assaulting troops are near the objective and the HQ is back in the reserve loc. One of the assault force is retreating in place. I wonder if it is delaying the move of the assault force and hence why the HQ arrives their first. Do you have a save?
     
  8. ironsight

    ironsight Member

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    Here is the save from the point in the screenshot. Of course they are nowhere near the objective yet, so it's odd they consider it achieved.

    Edit - That retreating unit had just pushed out a ways down the road alone and got hammered.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor

    Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor Panther Games Designer

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    ironsight, I'm just taking a look at your save (thanks for uploading it).It's not p[ossible to tell from the save where TF Erlenbusch was when it originally got the order to attack. Do you recall where it was located?

    FYI the force is still moving up for the attack. It's moving in two groups - with the first comprising the HQ and B.23 Coy and the second the assault companies. The assault group is moving independently to the FUP while the HQ and B.23 are heading to the reserve loc.

    BTW with a unit selected, hold the Control key down and click the up cursor key to select its assigned order or Control + down cursor to select its current task, which is what I have done in the screen shot below.
    TF Erlenbusch #1.jpg

    So the issue is not what I speculated earlier - ie the force having decided the objective was already achieved. There are two issues here. First is why the HQ has gone out in front of B.23. The second is whether we should allow the force to move independently over long distances.

    Re the first issue. I checked the data and B.23 is supposed to be the advance guard for the HQ. I just checked its rout status and see that it is retreat recovery. It was engaged and bombarded and then retreated. So it probably was a case of the HQ staying behind B.23 but then B.23 says 'bugger this'; and runs back leaving the HQ exposed. the HQ decides to halt in response while it waits for its advance guard to recover. I think that's a fair thing. If we were to continue playing what we would find, assuming no enemy intervention, is that B.23 will recover and resume its position out front of the HQ.

    Re the second issue. I am interested to know how far away from the FUP the HQ was when it issued its orders for the attack. Why I am thinking this is because maybe we should have the AI assess the length of the move to the FUP and if it's really long (say more than 2kms) then the whole force should move up to the reserve loc and then split with the assault group moving to the FUP. Do you have an earlier save?
     
  10. Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor

    Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor Panther Games Designer

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    This is not aimed specifically at you ironsight but I do want to make the point to everyone that before you jump to conclusions and assume the HQ's is leading the charge, please check the situation carefully. In this particular case the HQ wasn't leading the charge, rather his advance guard has retreated back exposing him. The HQ then halted while his advance guard recovered.

    Now with a careful eye you can determine this. What I did in this case was first determine the HQs current unit task (Control + down cursor arrow). I then referred to the OB display, having set the force structure type to display 'force formation'.
    TF Erlenbusch #2.jpg

    I then selected B.23 coy and checked its rout status and log to determine what happened to it.
    TF Erlenbusch #3.jpg

    So please when you see something that at first blush looks awry:
    • Remember the fourth dimension is time - things happened before this moment in time.
    • Check out the situation by interrogating the wealth of data that is accessible. Current unit task, OB display, formation, rout status and log can tell you a lot.
    • If you need to confirm, replay the recording. It can show you the sequence.
    • If there is still no obvious explanation, then by all means bring it to my attention.
    Thanks for bringing this to my attention ironsight.:)
     
  11. ironsight

    ironsight Member

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    TF Erlenbusch was in it's initial start positions at the start of the scenario. All I did was start the scenario and issue an attack order with the objective on Vortum.

    I did let the scenario run after the screenshots. After B.23 retreated the HQ went down the road by itself, got hit hard, and retreated back into the town. Not sure if that happens every time but it happened at least once.

    Edit - I should also mention that the HQ was indeed out in front of all the other units before that screenshot. What happened was that B.23 was behind the HQ, and it moved past the HQ down the road, got shot up, and then retreated back behind the HQ. So yes I'd say based on the above that the HQ was in front prior to B.23 passing it, at least for part of the attack. If a force is moving as two parts then I don't think the reserve should ever be ahead of the main attack group although it's up to you if that is worth programming.

    Edit - And of course this situation might have been avoided by manually setting the FUP instead of leaving it to the AI.
     
    #11 ironsight, Nov 17, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2015
  12. Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor

    Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor Panther Games Designer

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    OK I ran the save forward five hours till 2300. During this period the HQ halted on several occasions as B.23 retreated back past it a short distance. On one occasion where B.23 began it's retreat and the HQ was immediately behind it, the HQ finished its current move event (one minute's worth) and then halted. This IMO does not constitute leading the charge. That is just a case of reaction time to come to a halt. B23 recovered, advanced, was engaged and retreated several times during this period. On each occasion the HQ halted or when it too was engaged retreated. At no time did it continue to advance beyond what would be one minute's worth of move.

    I think players need to understand that in real life there were numerous occasions in which HQs ended up at the front. You may think that this should not happen but please remember that there are delays in reacting to developments. It is not instantaneous even though you might want that. So I am not going to modify this behaviour as such.

    However, knowing that the attack was from the original start position, which was some five clicks away, I do think we could add some extra smarts to test for the range to the reserve loc and how far this is through enemy controlled territory. In this case we can see that a good three clicks is in enemy controlled territory.

    TF Erlenbusch start #1.jpg

    In this case it would be better if the whole Bn moved as one to the reserve loc and then left the HQ and B.23 there while the assault group moved off to the FUP. This would mean the whole force would stand a better chance of moving forward to the reserve loc. Now this would only work where the reserve loc lies along the route the FUP. This is not always the case.

    This will require a fair amount of work to modify the plan doctrine for the attack and then test it and refine it. Is this more important than mounted ops? One option springs to mind. We do this attack planning enhancement along with sequential tasking and leave mounted ops for the subsequent update. We have to do sequential tasking before mounted ops.
     
  13. ironsight

    ironsight Member

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    Your call of course, but whatever gets us to the Eastern Front modules the fastest gets my vote! :)
     
  14. Rob

    Rob Member

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    This works for me. Modify plan doctrine and initiate sequential tasking first, foremost, and always!:woot::woot:.

    Rob.:)
     

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