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IG guns and GR42 8cm mortar

TMO

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Hi again Gunnar, in a previous thread you mentioned that IG18 guns were sometimes concentrated into one unit (I may have this wrong). What about the kurtzer GR42 8cm mortar? would these have been concentrated into a single unit on occasions as well?

Regards

Tim
 

GoodGuy

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Hi again Gunnar, in a previous thread you mentioned that IG18 guns were sometimes concentrated into one unit (I may have this wrong). What about the kurtzer GR42 8cm mortar? would these have been concentrated into a single unit on occasions as well?

Regards

Tim

Erm, no. The sIG 33 ("15-cm-schweres-Infanteriegeschütz 33") platoons (2 guns formed a platoon) were often taken away from the IG Coys (leaving the le.IG 18 guns and the other weapons in the IG), combined and put under direct command of the Regimental HQ. This gave regimental tasks more punch, as a regimental Co. then did not have to wait/apply for fire support from the artillery regiment (attached to the division) or even the Corps/Army artillery.
Another advantage was that single pieces could then be shuffled around, say for emergency AT duties (when regular AT guns were not available), or when direct shots using the Stielgranate 42 (a 200 lb demolition overcalibre-round that carried 60 lb of explosives at a max. range of 1000 meters or 1100 yards) were needed to crack enemy strongpoints or disrupt crucial attacks.

The le.IG 18 guns were usually not combined, afaik, the remaining elements of the IG Coy body kept being employed as a whole, either still controlled by and in support of the Bn, or in support of particular Coys, if needed.

The "Kurze 8-cm-Granatwerfer 42" was in fact the Gr.W 34. but whose tube was shortened to reduce the weight. The Kz.GrW 42 was inteded to be used by para troops only, but was then actually also used by the Army to replace the 50-mm-Granatwerfer 36 (also designated "5 cm leGrW 36" - "le" short for "leichter" = light, the mortar had a high spread: 31 meters long, 4 meters wide at 520 meters, and a low amount of HE in its small round), which was gradually removed (starting in 1942).
Until 1941, every platoon in non-motorized Inf Coys and motorized Rifle Coys had a so-called "light mortar troop", consisting of the troop leader, rifleman no. 1 (Schütze 1) and rifleman no. 2 (Schütze 2). Schütze 1 served as gunner (and aimed or corrected), Schütze 2 was the loader. The troop leader then did the spotting, staying near the Schützen to be able to order fire direction and distances, which he then corrected by using his binoculars. The troop leader had to carry 3 little bars/sticks (used to align the mortar) and an ammo box with 10 mortar rounds during relocation. Schütze 1 carried the mortar's base plate, Schütze 2 the tube. Since they used special knapsack gear to carry these parts, each of the 2 riflemen could carry 1 ammo box, at the same time.

For the Kz.GrW 42 sources agree on a max. range of 1100 meters, the tube was 747 mm long. Since the 42 was still a short-range mortar, it probably stayed with the INF Coys.
The regular verion of the 8 cm Granatwerfer 34 (range: 2400 meters) was employed in the mortar platoons of MG Coys in Inf Bns and rifle Bns (motorized), if I am not mistaken, where then 6 mortars formed a mortar platoon.

So, I am not sure about Fallschirm units (did the kz.GrW 42 serve in their mortar Coys/platoons?), but since the Wehrmacht actually grabbed the Kz.GrW 42 as replacement (because the 50-mm mortar became increasingly ineffective over the course of the war), these short-range lightweight pieces surelely must have served in the Inf Coys, just like their predecessors - which were designed to give the infantry Coys some additional punch at (very) short ranges, as an organic Inf Coy asset.
It's possible that neighboring Coys on the attack then combined their mortars, but the range was too short (thus their usage limited) to be considered to be combined (exceeding Coy level) or up'ed to higher echelons, imho.

In short:
If the Coy commander decided to combine the organic mortar pieces, then they were combined, of course, but I tend to think that every platoon leader cooked his own soup, like we say, means that he may have insisted on getting direct support from "his" mortar troop.
Also, the accuracy of the initially used 50-mm mortars was quite bad, so that combining them probably didn't increase the punch (as the concentration of fire was insufficient) that much.
Since the kz.GrW 42 was waaaay more accurate, despite the shortened tube - which just resulted in shorter range - combining might have happened. But it was not standard procedure, and it was not even mentioned in the field manual.

With ammunition shortages in 1944 and 1945, the troops grabbed the 50-mm mortars more often, again, as a) there were some amounts of 50 mm supplies left in some theaters and as b) the mortars were quite easy to handle. Even though quite some 50-mm GrW 36 were lost or destroyed,in 1944, captured Russian 50-mm mortars (which could fire the German ammunition) then filled the hardware gap, as well as the fixed French 50-mm mortars that were removed from the Maginot line and reinstalled in/on German bunkers at the French Coast and on the Siegfried line (494 of the latter pieces were still in service in Novermber 1944).

EDIT: Btw, the 10-cm-Nebelwerfer 35 (in fact 10.5 cm) was a mortar solely designed as dedicated smoke grenade launcher. The Germans started with 155 pieces in 1939, 627 pieces were built until 1941, when the production was halted. I am guessing that artillery smoke was more useful/effective, and other (diff. calibre) mortar pieces could fire smoke rounds, too.
The 10-cm-Nebelwerfer 40 mortar was the successor of the 35, only 317 pieces were produced, the system proved to be too heavy and general handling was cumbersome, due to its long tube.
 
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TMO

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Another question, looking at Joe's Bridge scenario and can't find IGs. According to Bayonet Strength a 44-45 a German para bn should have an IG pl. Is this correct? Any idea why these appear to be missing from the German OOB or am I not looking in the right place?

Regards

Tim
 

GoodGuy

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Another question, looking at Joe's Bridge scenario and can't find IGs. According to Bayonet Strength a 44-45 a German para bn should have an IG pl. Is this correct? Any idea why these appear to be missing from the German OOB or am I not looking in the right place?

Regards

Tim

As per entry in the required strength sheets (KStN) the Para Bns were supposed to be restructured in the style of the Grenadier-Bns, in May 1944. In general, and with some units, some of the sheets contained handwritten notes, stating that changes had been implemented already (which means that the sheets were filled out or handed in later), but more than often they can be seen as plan for units of a "neuer Art" (new kind, new type), where the changes were then implemented (in the field, but also with newly created units from the get-go), wherever possible, but - afaik - for existing units in the field gradually, and not instantly).

Also, there were still numbers of the recoilless 75-mm Leichtgeschütz (range: around 6,500 meters) from Rheinmetalll circulating. While the ammo production for this gun phased out in 1941 (with around 92,000 grenades produced in 1941, it seems like documents covering the 1940 production - if there was any - have not survived) already, the Germans picked up again the production of the 75-mm rounds in 1944 (52,000 rounds produced), as they figured that the avg. deployment of the Para Bn increasingly resembled the deployment of a corresponding Wehrmacht Inf Bn, and as these recoilless guns were still circulating and even produced in 1944 (the year with the highest production numbers: 237 guns), and as they needed these guns to fill hardware gaps (see below).

With the experiences made on Crete in 1941, the Germans tried to improve the impact effects, so they up'ed the calibre and quickly developed a 105 mm version, produced by the company Dürkopp and designated 10.5-cm-Leichtgeschütz 42 (max. range: 8,000 meters).

A recoilless gun produced by Krupp, designateded 10.5-cm- LG 40, had a slightly longer barrel, but the same specs as the LG 42 and roughly the same weight (4 kg lighter).

The 105-mm LG 43 was very similar to the LG 42, with the exception that the wheels were lifted from the ground automatically, when the rear pillars were straddled, which then allowed for 360° shots.

The ammunition production figures of all 105-mm gun types amounted to 30,000 (1941), 206,400 (1942), 118,000 (1943) and to 98,000 rounds in 1944. The production numbers of these gun almost reached the production level of the 75-mm gun (except for 1944), which suggests that the 105-mm guns were used more often or preferred (due to their better punch).

In turn, the amount of man-hours needed for producing the le.IG 18's and the amount of resources needed per gun were both relatively high (in relation to the gun's size), so that the production could not keep up with the demand.

That said, even though it seems like the Para Bns should have received le. IG 18's (I can't find my KStN - St.A.N.-Verwaltung der Luftwaffe files covering the Para Bns, I only have Flak and Luftwaffe courts KStN atm, lol, so I can't verify the Bayonet claims), they still might have possessed (in the game as well) LGs instead, as they were easier to handle (mounting took 2 minutes only, and disassembled they could be carried in 10 parts by para troopers, or in 5-6 parts by horses, mules, etc.).

The "leichte Artillerieabteilungen (mot.)" (light Arty Bns - motorized) 423, 424, 426, 429 and 430 had received (a number of) LGs as well, according to Chamberlain. These units were Army units, not Luftwaffe units.
 
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simovitch

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Short answer is I think these fj units had just finished a withdrawal from the south and didn’t have much in the way of heavy weapons with them.
 
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