Moving just a HQ unit

Discussion in 'Command Ops Series' started by Bullman, Aug 24, 2015.

  1. Bullman

    Bullman Member

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    I have realised that I may not know the preferred way of moving just a HQ unit (especially an on-map boss HQ) so that no units currently attached to it are issued orders and move to the same location.

    I understand that if you detach all the subordinates of a HQ, then issuing an order to that HQ will not affect other units but this sounds like a very clumsy way of making just the HQ unit move to a particular location. Once the HQ gets to the new location, the player would then have to remember which subordinate units were originally attached to the HQ and reattach them all manually.

    If the clumsy method I mention is the only way, what is the best way to detach a subordinate from a HQ unit without making those subordinates move?

    Cheers

    Bull
     
  2. Daz

    Daz Member

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    Detaching all the units to move just the HQ is the only way to do it I'm afraid.

    What makes it much easier is if you have the OB tab open and change it between OB-Player Structure to detach all the units, then after your move switch to OB-Organic Structure in order to reattach them.
    What is very important, is to remember is to switch the HQ to defend in situ before reattaching its subordinates.
     
  3. dippysea

    dippysea Member

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    The way I would do it is
    If HQ and subordinates is Defend
    1 Highlight all subordinates in level directly below and issue defend in situ
    2 Highlight the HQ and ANY subordinates that you want to move choose Move to the desired location
    3 When the HQ is at desired location click on the single HQ that all the rest are now under and re-attach.
     
  4. john connor

    john connor Member

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    3 When the HQ is at desired location click on the single HQ that all the rest are now under and re-attach.

    Though I think doing this last step will have the effect that the old HQ will now dispose of all its (reattached) units as it sees fit, probably moving them closer to itself, as I believe the re-attachment will override your previous defend in situ order. To avoid this, lasso (or cntrl select) all the units you wish to bring under the old (moved) HQ (without first re-attaching them) and then issue a defend in-situ order to the group. Or after you reattach the units in step 3 then quickly issue a defend in situ order to the old HQ which now commands the reattached units.

    Peter
     
  5. dippysea

    dippysea Member

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    sorry, I forgot to add make the HQ unit Defend in situ first, which luckily Daz posted just before mine :)
     
  6. john connor

    john connor Member

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    Does that work? We've had this discussion before, I know. But I can't recall if it works to make an HQ defend in situ THEN reattach units to it, or reattach units THEN give the HQ a defend in situ order? Do they both work (to keep all units in situ)? I'm not sure. The second will certainly work, not sure about the first.

    Peter
     
  7. Daz

    Daz Member

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    The defend in situ order can be given first to the HQ, then all the units reattached and they won't move.
     
  8. Bullman

    Bullman Member

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    Hmm...I really think that this is a weakness of the game that really should be designed out. Essentially, there should be a way to move individual HQ units that does not drag all other subordinate/attached units with it. I could imagine a new type of move command/order that does not trickle down the command chain to all attached subordinate units and is limited to the individual unit.

    The methods suggested do not even equate to anything that would have to realistically occur. It does seem to be a rather artificial and clumsy way to achieve something that ordinarily would most likely be a very simple thing to do.

    Just consider how awkward it currently can be to relocate a HQ unit alone, in particular the map boss. The "worst case" scenario for this is with very large battles with many units played multiplayer (where you don't want to minimise any pausing in the game); You want to move a Corp HQ unit that has several divisions organically attached to it. There could possibly be scores of individual units that it now controls with units scattered all over the map; These units may in fact be in the middle of an important complex attack etc; You realise you need to move your Corp HQ just a few kilometers to a more safer location; To do so, not only do you have to (ideally) essentially pause the game, you need to meticulously find and detach rather awkwardly every unit that is attached to the Corp HQ, give them each a rather arbitrary "insitu" command of some kind (Defend typically) just to get it to detach from the HQ, but you also risk bringing to a halt any other order that those units were actually in the process of conducting.

    Is this really how we want the game to handle the simple task of relocating an individual HQ unit?
     
  9. Bullman

    Bullman Member

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    What happens if these units were in the process of conducting some kind of complex attack/move?

    You could argue that if they were executing a movement/attack order that it must have been conducted via the HQ, and so would allowing the HQ unit to move freely without interrupting existing movement/attack orders be realistic?
     
  10. Daz

    Daz Member

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    This has been asked for quite a few times before in the past, by my self included I think.
    The problem is its obviously a complicated thing to do requiring quite a lot of change in the code or Dave would have done it already.

    Its not that hard to find the units that are still attached to a HQ.
    As I said earlier use the OB Player structure to select units that are attached and give them new orders.
    You don't need to select every unit only the subordinate HQ's, as any order given to them will effect all the units they have subordinate to them in the chain of command.
    So for instance if you want to move a Div HQ on its own, select the Brigade or Regimental HQ's from the OB tab and give them individual orders, then the Division support units until it is either on its own or until the only units left attached are the ones you want to remain with the Div HQ with its new move order.
    In most scenarios there won't be that many units still attached anyway, as they will most likely have their own orders already as per your plan.

    Units that are attached to the HQ you want to move, that are in the process of executing an order. will have to re plan under their new commander allocated when you detach them from the HQ and give them a new order.
     
  11. 76mm

    76mm Member

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    Unattaching all subordinates is a pretty cumbersome way to deal with this; ideally there would be some kind of key combination to press to allow movement of the only the HQ. During any such moves the HQ's "command radius" or command rating could be significantly reduced to reflect reduced effectiveness during moves.
     
  12. Bullman

    Bullman Member

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    That's the point I was trying to make and that is a reasonable suggestion. Be good if Dave could comment on whether the coding to do so is actually complicated and hence why it hasn't been done before.
     
  13. 76mm

    76mm Member

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    Sure, but how do you know which units USED TO BE attached to the HQ, so that you can reattach them? I've only played a few times, so there might be a way, I just don't know it...
     
  14. Bobbyb1

    Bobbyb1 Member

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    The organic OOB is surely only relevant to what the OOB looked like at the start of the scenario though, right? So if you have moved things around by say 3 and now its time to move the Div HQ a little closer (or further away) from the front, you have to basically remember/write down the next level down player OOB so that's where you re-attach - right?
     
  15. Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor

    Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor Panther Games Designer

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    This does get quite complex. First, tasks and orders are assigned to a Subject which is the senior most unit of the selected force group (or if just one unit is selected then it will be that unit plus all its current attachments). Now If you detach all the subordinate units then they will end up doing a hold task. The original Subject will still have the assigned task. This is not want you want. You want the original order to apply to the rest of the force group. Currently there is no UI to effect this nor any AI to manage it. The closest thing you can do is select all the subordinates and then assign them a new order. It will select the most senior of these and make it the subject. It will probably become overloaded in the process and suffer significant orders delay.

    We could create a UI to do this but this would involve dev work and end up with IMHO a half ars*d solution. The original intent from the Bulman was to move the HQ to its preferred location but still leaving the force as one command. Now my mind, accustomed to trying to discern user intent, immediately takes this a step further and says that perhaps what the initial poster really was after was a means of setting the formation location of all the formation elements. In other words, you issue a Defend order where you want the HQ to end up but then can position each of you formation subGroups to a specific location you choose. That way you get control over the disposition of the entire force.

    From a UI perspective this offers a few challenges. But I think we could handle this with a display filter that showed the likely subgroup locs by way of say a rectangle for each group centred on the location with a line drawn to the HQ intended location. Then if we supported the ability to drag these to a new loc and then have the UI determine if the original disposition had changed then it would set a flag that would overrule the AI when it came time to generate the final formation. It would then have to handle all the cases where the user doesn't allow enough space or provides too great a separation. That would be the messy AI bit. But it's doable.

    This would not be a trivial bit of work. How important would you arte this? Is it more important than Sequential tasking?
     
  16. Daz

    Daz Member

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    In my opinion at the moment, nothing is more important than Sequential tasking, because that is a prerequisite of mounted ops.
     
  17. Rob

    Rob Member

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    Absolutely agree!
     
  18. 76mm

    76mm Member

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    I'm not sure that I agree that that was what the OP was after--he asks explicitly about how to move just the HQ, without changing the formation location of all the formation elements--not moving the "entire force" but just the HQ...
     
  19. Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor

    Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor Panther Games Designer

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    Yes I do realise that but perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly enough. The way the AI works is that when you order a Defend at a location it places the Subject at the location and then deploys its subordinates around it. All the code to determine whether or not the task has been achieved relies on the subject being there. Now I changed this for an attack back in CO1 days by stripping out the subject and assigning it to the reserve task. That was a significant undertaking, I can tell you, and yet it still relies on assigning the HQ/subject to a reserve location the user does not have control over.

    So the best compromise, in terms of development effort and control by the user, in this situation would be drag the existing location of the Defend task to where you want the HQ to be located and then drag each of the formation sub groups over to where the subordinates are currently located.
     

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