Multiple Units Firing Question

Discussion in 'LnLT Rule Questions & Clarifications' started by Jack Ruetty, Mar 8, 2020.

  1. Jack Ruetty

    Jack Ruetty Member

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    I have a question with the first paragraph on page 34 of the 5.0 game manual.

    “Remember that, for the most part, all units firing from the same hex, in the same impulse, must target the same hex. However, there are exceptions:
    • SWs with to-hit tables (OFT) on the back of their counters (e.g., Bazookas).
    • WTs and vehicles must fire separately, even when firing in the same impulse.
    • Although WTs and vehicles CAN fire in a different impulse, SWs must fire during the same impulse as the Squad that possesses them.”
    First of all, I am not positive the wording is correct. The first bulleted item makes no sense. There is no exception stated. But if you look at the Version 3 rules (which are very similar) bullets one and two are combined together and make much more sense. It reads: “Support Weapons with To-Hit tables on the back of their counters (for example, bazookas), Weapon Teams, and vehicles must fire separately even when firing in the same impulse.” So, I assume this is what the version 5.0 rules are trying to say.

    My question than is this: Does this imply that Support Weapons with To-Hit Tables on the back of their counters, WTs, and vehicles can than fire at different hexes than other activated units in their hex? For example, if a hex containing two squads and a MG Weapon Team is activated, could the two squads fire at one hex and the WT at another?

    Thanks for any help.

    Jack
     
  2. Barthheart

    Barthheart Moderator
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    Yes.
     
  3. Jack Ruetty

    Jack Ruetty Member

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    Thanks.

    If this was a bazooka what happens with the squad firing it? I assume it has to also fire at the hex the bazooka fired at even if it is different than the hex that other squads fired at. For example if a hex containing three squads and one possesses a bazooka is activated two squads could fire at one hex and the bazooka (and its squad) could fire at a tank in another hex?

    Thanks for the help
    Jack
     
  4. Barthheart

    Barthheart Moderator
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    Nope, all the squads must fire at the same hex. The squad with the bazooka must fire at the same hex as the bazooka but not necessarily the same target. If the target hex contains a squad and a vehicle all the squads could shoot at the squad and the bazooka could shoot at the tank.
     
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  5. Jack Ruetty

    Jack Ruetty Member

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    Thanks. I really appreciate this clarification.
     
  6. Stéphane Tanguay

    Stéphane Tanguay Moderator
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    Just to be clear:

    All units firing from one hex in one impulse must fire at the same hex, and usually at the same target (vehicle or leg unit). The exceptions listed, (to which you could add the sniper) can fire at a different target (still in the same hex though).

    I agree the wording on page 34 is confusiing but the following, from page 27, is less so:

    Not all units in a hex need to perform the same function, but all firing units within a hex that are activated in the same impulse must engage the same target. There is, however, an exception. SWs with to-hit tables on the back of their counters (such as Bazookas, ATRs, etc.), must either fire separately (i.e., not adding in their Firepower with any other units targeting the same hex, but rather by making an entirely separate roll) or fire at another target altogether.
     
  7. Jack Ruetty

    Jack Ruetty Member

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    Thanks so much to both of you. Just to clarify one last time. If I have a squad, a weapon team, and a tank all in one hex, all three units need to fire at the same hex. The WT and tank could fire at different targets within the hex and must fire separately, but all three must fire at the same hex.

    Does this sound correct?
    Thanks
    Jack
     
    #7 Jack Ruetty, Mar 10, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2020
  8. Stéphane Tanguay

    Stéphane Tanguay Moderator
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    Yes, if they want to fire in the same impulse
     
  9. Jack Ruetty

    Jack Ruetty Member

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    Thanks for all the help Stéphane and Barthheart.
     
  10. Captain Darling

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    Hi All!

    Good to see people still active here. I’ve been away from board gaming for quite a while (family and work priorities) but getting back into them, including LnL Tactical now.

    Okay regarding...

    “The squad with the bazooka must fire at the same hex as the bazooka but not necessarily the same target.”

    I believe and play that a Bazooka (i.e. a SW with a to-hit table on back) can fire at a target in a different hex to which the Squad possessing it uses its IFP when activated, that is clearly covered by...

    Remember that, for the most part, all units firing from the same hex, in the same impulse, must target the same hex. However, there are exceptions:

    • SWs with to-hit tables (OFT) on the back of their counters (e.g., Bazookas).
    And the last six words of this (my italics and underlining)...

    from page 27, is less so:

    Not all units in a hex need to perform the same function, but all firing units within a hex that are activated in the same impulse must engage the same target. There is, however, an exception. SWs with to-hit tables on the back of their counters (such as Bazookas, ATRs, etc.), must either fire separately (i.e., not adding in their Firepower with any other units targeting the same hex, but rather by making an entirely separate roll) or fire at another target altogether.


    Just my 2 cents worth.

    Cheers!
     
  11. Stéphane Tanguay

    Stéphane Tanguay Moderator
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    Captain Darling, here is the full excerpt (and I don't know why I did not included the last sentence, in my previous post, as this was the irrefutable part) that should clear any confusion:

    Not all units in a hex need to perform the same function, but all firing units within a hex that are activated in the same impulse must engage the same target. There is, however, an exception. SWs with to-hit tables on the back of their counters (such as Bazookas, ATRs, etc., must either fire separately (i.e., not adding in their Firepower with any other units targeting the same hex, but rather by making an entirely separate roll) or fire at another target altogether. They still must fire during the same impulse as the unit possessing them and at the same hex.

    The part in blue indicates that this was added in the latest version of the rules. I rekcon it should have been added at a couple of other places and it's going on ly list of things to add to the Clarifications and Corrections document.

    Now, of course, you can continue to play it your way :)
     
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  12. Captain Darling

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    Thanks Stéphane!

    “They still must fire during the same impulse as the unit possessing them and at the same hex.”

    That line does make the intent is clearer than elsewhere, I.e the initial paragraph from page 34.

    I’ll discuss it with my usual opponent and we’ll decide which way to go.

    Interestingly neither of us like the new version of the rules as we strictly play WW II and it includes a lot we don’t require causing clutter (for just us) so we use the old rules and update anything we need in them.
     
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  13. Ben2013

    Ben2013 Member

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    Reading the phrase:

    "Remember that, for the most part, all units firing from the same hex, in the same impulse, must target the same hex. However, there are exceptions:
    • SWs with to-hit tables (OFT) on the back of their counters (e.g., Bazookas)."
    it suggests that the exception is in relation to the rule that units firing from the same hex must target the same hex. So while it is clear that a support weapon must fire at the same hex as the squad possessing it, this does not preclude the unit possessing it from firing at a different hex from the other units in the activated hex in the same impulse. If this is not the intention, then the rules need to be rephrased.
     
  14. Stéphane Tanguay

    Stéphane Tanguay Moderator
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    Ben2013
    Yes, that sentence from page 34 is incomplete and will eventually be annotated as such but if you look at my message of April 4th, 2020 above, the text on page 27 clearly indicate that it must be at the same hex. When the new version of the rules was printed, the same hex part was added to page 27 but left out from page 34
     
  15. Ben2013

    Ben2013 Member

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    Hi Stephane,

    Let me first preface by saying that I think the Ver 5.0 rules are generally very well written and clear. On your 4 April reply, I did read it:

    "They still must fire during the same impulse as the unit possessing them and at the same hex."


    My problem with the above is that adding the words "and at the same hex" does not resolve the ambiguity because I read them in the sentence as referring to the same hex as the unit possessing them is firing into and not necessarily the same hex as what other units in the same hex are firing into.

    Ben
     
  16. Stéphane Tanguay

    Stéphane Tanguay Moderator
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    Hi Ben!

    Yes, the 5.0 rules are genenerally well written but there is always room for improvement and they are also the child of a rulebook that was written in a very conversational way. Without rewriting the whole thing (and then have problems with the rules numbers reference in all the products, both older and newer version), you have to make do with was is already thre :)

    Yes, the sentence does say they have to fire at the same hex as the units possessing them but since that very unit must fire at the same hex as the others units, it imply everybody and everything that fire in one impulse must fire at the same hex (altough not always at the same target, a target being defined as a vehicle or a leg unit)
     

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