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Questions on vehicles (mostly)

MCabido

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I began playing with vehicles recently and some doubts emerged:

14.1.1 states: “Inside passengers of a vehicle shaken by ordnance must then pass a MC under the same conditions as their carrying unit. [...] If they are shaken, they don’t have to disembark.”

1. Here, I suppose that “under the same conditions” mean the same dice difference when resolving fire. Is that so? If so, is this worth for bailout checks too?
EDIT: The question doesn't make sense, since the statement is under EQUAL results for MPV and MAV.

2. The last sentence give the impression that GO unit would have to disembark, but it doesn’t seem to make sense. Is that right?

3. Is there any movement restriction to shaken vehicles, like not moving closer to enemy unit in LOS? I suppose not, but just want to confirm.


14.4 states: “ATGMs cannot target MMCs/SMCs in the open. They can, however, target Buildings and Bunkers containing MMCs/SMCs.”

4. What about caves?


15.0 states: “Unless otherwise noted, a vehicle equipped with a MG(s) must fire its MG(s) and its main gun, in any order, in the same impulse, and they must fire at the same hex.”

5. I suppose here that if the main gun has more than one fire and chooses to fire at an adjacent hex, the MGs would be able to choose in which hex they want to fire and may even fire one at each hex. Am I right?

6. Leg units already in the hex will be subject to OF too when passengers disembark on that same hex?


17.1 (close assault) states about pre-assault MC: “The Leader checks first; if he passes, he can use his LM to assist other MMCs [...]”

7. If the Leader possesses an anti-tank SW and so will contribute with its FP, will it still aid MC with his LM?


17.2 states: “Inside passengers of open (not open-topped) armored vehicles are unaffected by small arms fire.” Just below we have: “If the attacker’s modified die-roll is greater than the defender’s modified die-roll, the target vehicle and all passengers must take a Damage Check (DC); the vehicle goes first. If the vehicle is buttoned, only external (PO or PPO) passengers take the DC.”

8. Here, when it is said that only external passengers take the DC with a buttoned vehicle, should we understand that with an unbuttoned vehicle the external passengers and the vehicle would take the DC, since inside passengers are unaffected?

9. Not related to vehicles, but the doubt came to me while playing with infantry. A GO Leader can activate the hexes around him during an impulse, but can he activate two or three hexes around him and not do anything himself or with any other unit in his own hex? In this case, we don’t talk about Ops Complete, or do we? Being so, he would be able to repeatedly activate the hexes around. Is this right?

10. Another one not related to vehicles. On laying smoke it is stated: “Only one attempt at laying smoke can be conducted per unit in one turn.” An Ops Complete marker is placed on the unit after an unsuccessful attempt and on units that successfully do it but do nothing else. How would a unit attempt to lay smoke twice in the same turn?
 
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MCabido

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Some extra questions I forgot to post above:

On ordnance-firing weapon teams 1.7.1 states: “Place a Moved marker on a WT that pivots and a Fired marker on one that fires or pivots and fires.”

11. As I understand, pivoting SW Teams are subject to the +1 DRM after pivoting. Is that so? Shouldn’t it be marked fired and moved if it pivots and fire?


14.3 states: “A firing unit under an Acquiring marker DOES NOT NEED TO SPOT an otherwise unspotted hex occupied by a target with the same-lettered Acquisition marker.”

12. I understand that the hex won’t be spotted to other units, just the firing unit under the acquiring marker. Just to confirm.


13. All vehicles can assault move and they may pivot when Opp firing. Suppose a vehicle move half its MPs as AM and then wants to Opp fire. I suppose it won’t be able to pivot to fire in that case, since it won’t have MPs left, right?
 

Stéphane Tanguay

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1. Actually, the « under the same conditions » apply to both situations (MPV equal and MPV less than the MAV); ideally, that paragrpah should have been placed at the end of 14.1.1. And yes, it does means you make the MC with the same difference between those two values. Bailout check are never modified in any way (16.1.1.)

2. GO units certainly don’t have to disembark. This sentence is to reaffirm the fact that inside passengers are never required to disembark, even if shaken by an OFT attack. Outside passengers (16.2) must always disembark if they are shaken by any type of attack. The Fate of Crew and Passengers Table (PAC09) is really helpful to determine what happens to inside/outside passengers, depending of the type of attack and the result on the vehicle

3. Shaken vehicles must Button, their MF is halved (fractions rounded down) and they cannot fire (5.1). And yes, they cannot advance toward an enemy in their LOS; they really don’t want to get closer to that ATG that just scare the hell out of them

4. At the moment, they can’t (caves are not bunkers or buildings). Also caves appears only in HOTP, which does not have any ATGM (but the Battle Generator mess this up…). I suppose a coherent house rule would be to allow them to fire at caves, because they are pretty similar to bunkers.

5. Your rule interpretation is a valid one, although one could says that all MGs must fire at the same hex, and that, in this situation, you would choose one of the hex targeted by the main gun to fire the MGs at. Fortunately, as far as I can tell, there is no vehicle with more than one MG AND “N x” main gun attacks

6. Yes, just like any other situation when moving leg units enter a hex with other friendly leg units.

7. Generally speaking, a GO leader's LM is applied whenever there is a DC or a MC involving units in its hex, and regardless of any SW's possession thus yes, it could

8. Yes, and here again, the Fate of Crew and Passengers Table (PAC09) can really help.

9. "A Leader activating adjacent units is marked with an Ops Complete marker if he does nothing else in this impulse" (second to last paragraph under 4.0).

10. It can’t. This is just a way to add suspenders to a rule that already has a belt

11. Yes, you would also place a Moved marker

12. Exactly

13. Since you can’t Opp fire in your impulse, I'massuming you mean a vehicle that Assault moved but did not fire and then, in later impulse, want to Opp fire. Technically, you are right but it can be hard to remember which vehicle assault moved using all its allowed MP (half of its MF in this case), and which used less than half their MF. Considering this, I would allow any vehicle that Assault moved in a previous impulse to pivot to Opp fire in a later impulse, regardless of the number of MPs actually spent in that previous impulse. Note that it would incurs an additional DRM, over and above the one that comes with AM; it would probably be better to simply rotate the turret in this case (if it has one).
 

MCabido

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Oh, as for question 9, I missed that one. Sorry.

I noticed that in 15.0.1 it is stated that a buttoned vehicle gets a +1 to their to-hit die-roll, but OFT states that an opened vehicle gets a -1 to their to-hit. Ok, the relation is kept, but using the table OFT DRM will make overall to-hit easier and using 15.0.1 would make it more difficult for any kind of weapon. Which should prevail?

One question I forgot to ask: 1.6.4 states "All OFT SWs can be Fired from Rooftops, though the British PIAT cannot fire at targets that are at a lower level." It means firing at a lower level at the same hex, isn't it?
 

Stéphane Tanguay

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1. When I point out a rule reference, it is not to underline that you missed it but because I had a people asking me to do so :)

2. The OFT should have been changed. We went this way because ATG with the same gun as a vehicle would never get the bonus for being "open"; it did not make sense, because they are even in a better situation than an open vehicle to fire at a target. Giving a penalty to buttoned vehicles somehow corrected this.

3. No, it means firing at any lower level hex.
 

MCabido

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Don't worry. I didn't think you were trying to underline it. I myself don't like to make questions when it is explicitly and very clearly stated on the manual. I usually do a search before posting a question. Anyway, sometimes I just really miss the rule when searching.

In relation to your answers, I just have to thank you. You have been very helpful.
 

Stéphane Tanguay

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My pleasure!

The rules could benefit from a rewrite at some point because, over time, they were patched, added to, and so on, and it is sometimes very easy to miss something.
 

MCabido

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A couple of questions more, mostly on vehicles:

It is stated on 10.3.2: “LOS traced along a hexside with separate Buildings, Bamboo Huts or other dwellings/structures on both side is not blocked. This is an exception to the rule that states: LOS traced along a hexside with blocking/degrading terrain on BOTH side is blocked/degraded.”

1. What happens when we have a forest and a building, for instance? Both are blocking terrain, but a forest isn’t a dwelling or structure.

2. A vehicle may move and then pivot, but I suppose it can’t do it simultaneously, even if paying the additional MP for pivoting, in order expose a greater armor side to an enemy unit before the OF takes place. Is this so?

3. When pivoting the turret, we get a +1 OFT penalty. Suppose a vehicle announces AM but has his turret pointed at an unfavorable direction in the beginning of its impulse. It will move two hexes before firing. Can it pivot its turret while moving to the next hex, so that when entering the second hex the turret will be already in place, preventing the penalty? I found nothing in the manual abou how turret position can be changed while moving. I’m playing allowing a turret change while entering a new hex, but if firing from it, I apply the penalty; if firing from the next hex, after moving without pivoting the turret, I ignore the penalty, but I’m sure I’m not doing it right here.


5.3 states: “Good Order units that are no marked with a Moved, Low Crawl, H&R or Fired marker, and that have a clear Line of Sight to a hex in which an enemy expends at least one Movement Point [...] can fire at it.”

4. A R Vehicle moving by road uses 0.5 MPs to enter a hex. I suppose we have an exception here. Is that right?
 

Stéphane Tanguay

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1. Blocked
2. Exactly. It must move first, exposing itself to OF then pivot, exposing itself again to OF
3. You can assume that the vehicle can pivot its turret without any additional penalty while moving. Thus, pivoting the turret while you are AMing does not incur an additional penalty. In all other cases, apply the penalty. This means that a turret that pivot before AF or in a subsequent impulse after AMing will suffer a +3 penalty (+1 for pivonting, +2 for AM/AF)
4. Yes :)
 

MCabido

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18.1 states: "Mortar WTs can also fire indirectly at spotted hexes to which a Leader, Scout or Advisor has a LOS."

I suppose the leader must be GO, but I found nothing about it on the sections about leaders and shaken units. Is that so?
 

Stéphane Tanguay

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Althought it does seems to be an omission (because calling OBA does requires to be in GO), at the moment, there is no such requirement. In an eventual rewriting of the rules, I'd like to have a general statement that would say that, unless otherwise specified, units need to be in GO to use any of their abilities
 

MCabido

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I agree. I think it makes more sense to explicitly state the exception, placing at the beginning of the manual a small section with the "unless otherwise specified" notes. It is also useful to underline the text whenever an exception is presented or use upper case, like when it is stated that shaken vehicles halved MPs is the ONLY case when rounding down happens.
 

MCabido

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Coordinated Movement allows MMCs, SMCs and vehicles to move together provided they start and finish their impulse together. Nothing is said about the possibility of leg units or vehicles becoming shaken by OF. If all leg units become shaken, for instance, can the vehicle continue movement? If so, what will be the remaining MPs? If not, what about one, among multiple leg units, becomes shaken?
 

Stéphane Tanguay

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The unshaken units can continue and are presumed to have spent as many MPs as it was necessary to get to this point. Also, if there is some legs units that are unshaken after OF, they can continue using coordinated movement with the vehicle. And yes, once all leg units have been shaken, the vehicle can continue moving with its remmaining MPs.
 

MCabido

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Thanks Stéphane. One doubt remains: the tank is supposed to be moving at a slower pace from the beginning, so, for instance, if the squad has expended 2MPs already, and the tank is keeping the squad's rhythm of move, we should suppose that half of the "turn time" must have passed, which would mean that a tank with 10 MP would have only 5 available, but according to your explanation, i must suppose it would have 8 MP remaining in that situation. Did I get it right?
 

Stéphane Tanguay

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If we were to take a more"realistic'" approach, you would be right, but it can become complex quite fast. Imagine, for example, that a stack double-timing with a leader need 5 MPs (on a potential of 6 MPS) to get to a location while a vehicle with a MF of 18 that accompany it would need 13. What happens when the leader is shaken after expending 3 MPs ? Technically, the legs units only have moved 50% of the intial MPs allotment but, because they can no longer double-time, they can only move 1 more MP (which is 25% of theiir MF and 16% of the initial MPs)

Much simpler to simply calculate the MPs expanded by the vehicle if it had move by itself until this point. It is also coherent with what we do when a squad with a hero is shaken after, say, expanding 2MPs; the hero can still move 4 more MPs.
 

MCabido

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Yes, I understand the simpler approach was taken. One alternative would be to finish the tank movement as if the group was still with it, but that would mean the tank wasn't able to speed up after the squads got shaken, which wouldn't be very realistic too.
 

Stéphane Tanguay

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Yes, I understand the simpler approach was taken. One alternative would be to finish the tank movement as if the group was still with it but that would mean the tank wasn't able to speed up after the squads got shaken, which wouldn't be very realistic too.
Interesting approach, just a bit conflicting with existing approaches for leg units by themselves but I'm taking notes!
 

MCabido

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When there are vehicles and infantry to be setup on board and the scenario description just says they must be setup on hexes x, y or z, can we setup infantry embarked or we should do it only if the scenario description allows it explicitly? What about units entering through the edges?
 
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