Spotting attempt is considered a pass - question

Discussion in 'LnLT Rule Questions & Clarifications' started by greywolf, Jan 6, 2016.

  1. greywolf

    greywolf Member

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    Hi!

    v.4.1 modern era rules - Pt. 10.1:
    "If the only action a side does during an impulse is perform a spotting attempt, it is considered a pass." (blue text)

    In the case of these impulses:
    Player A: pass
    Player B: Spotting attempt -> failure -> Ops Complete Marker is placed (and is considered a pass)
    Player A: pass -> and Operations Phase ends

    I cannot find a rule, a player can do another action after a spotting-failure;
    in addition i cannot understand the intention of the new insert.
    [In my opinion this is a big advantage for the defensive player: pass and wait for a spotting-failure to end the active operations phase]

    Is this correct? Any hints?
    Thx in advance!
     
  2. Carlos S. Olivares Pérez

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    During the Operation Phase, the active player may:

    1. Do a Spotting Attempt.
    2. Active a hex.

    So, after the Spotting Attempt, regardless the result, he still may do many things.

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  3. greywolf

    greywolf Member

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    Thx, for the fast reply!

    For clarification an example:

    - Unit A is spotting (without being activated)
    (all variants in the same impulse!)

    - Variant 1: Spotting sucessful - this Unit A can fire on the spotted hex (marked with a 'Fire' marker)

    - Variant 2: Spotting sucessful (Unit A is marked with a 'Ops complete' marker) - another Unit (also from another hex is activated) can fire on the spotted hex (an then marked with a 'Fire' marker) OR also another action (except spotting)

    - Variant 3: Spotting not sucessful - any other hex can be activated choosing any action (except spotting)

    Hopefully all 3 Varaint are correct!
     
  4. Carlos S. Olivares Pérez

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    All are correct. Regarding Variant 3, the hex activated can be the same hex of the spotting unit, as you may have there other units.

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  5. greywolf

    greywolf Member

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    Once more many thanks!!!
     
  6. Jeff Lewis

    Jeff Lewis Designer

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    And Leader that performs Spotting attempt can activate units in adjacent hexes too.

    The intent behind a Spotting attempt being a pass is b/c it doesn't count as an impulse. This is a clarification.
     
  7. Carlos S. Olivares Pérez

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    I assume that the Leader can activate units in adjacent hexes only in the case the Spotting Attempt is successful, because units beneath Ops Complete markers cannot perform any actions, including Leaders using their abilities.

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  8. Jeff Lewis

    Jeff Lewis Designer

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    That's only if all you do is make the spotting attempt and thus don't perform an impulse. If you activate a hex and activate that Leader, all units in adjacent hexes are ipso facto eligible to activate, regardless of what the Leader does; then the Leader can perform his spotting attempt. (This would fall under "except for instances described below" in 4.1, and "below" meaning in the rest of the rules; it's also mention above in 4.0 RE if all the Leader does is activate adjacent hexes he's marked Ops Complete.

    Also, your interpretation of the rule (just by reading 4.1) is playing in such a way that is very impractical and not tactically sound. You don't have to make a spotting attempt as the first thing you do unless you are playing it really tight and don't want to commit. Otherwise, if you activate a hex first, you can perform a spotting attempt at any time during the impulse, say after other units have moved or fired at other spotted units, etc.
     
  9. Carlos S. Olivares Pérez

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    Yes. The Spotting Attempt may be done after an Impulse. But I thought that a unit under Ops Complete (as a Leader that only activates units in his and adjacent hexes) cannot make an Spotting Attempt.

    I thought that "except for the instances described below" referred only to point 4.1 (as OF), not to the rest of rules. Thanks for the aclaration, Jeff.

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  10. Jeff Lewis

    Jeff Lewis Designer

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    The Leader that only activates units in his and adjacent hexes and does NOTHING else is Ops Complete, e.g., doesn't move or fire. It's not that the act of activating his and adjacent hexes renders him useless for all other actions. That would be silly.
     
  11. Carlos S. Olivares Pérez

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    I don't know if I have understood this. As a unit under an Ops Complete can still make a Spotting Attempt (as you described with the Leader that only activates units, and then makes the Spotting Attempt), is this sequence also valid?:

    - A Leader is activated; units it his hex, fire.
    - An adjacent unit lays Smoke (is put under Ops Complete).
    - The unit that laid the Smoke now makes a Spotting Attempt.
     
  12. Jeff Lewis

    Jeff Lewis Designer

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    No.

    The unit that laid the Smoke is Ops Complete. The Leader that activated his and adjacent hexes could, after all those other units did their impulse, make a Spotting Attempt as long as he didn't participate in any other action.
     
  13. Stéphane Tanguay

    Stéphane Tanguay Moderator
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    Carlos,

    First, let me start by saying that I've never done a spotting attempt at the end of an impulse. It's always the first thing I do in an impulse if I plan to spot in said impulse. Generally speaking, I try to spot an enemy unit so as to be able to act upon it in my impulse. No point in doing the spotting attempt at the end of the impulse then right ? Even more so, the spotted unit could move out of LOS in it's impulse, rendering the whole process pointless. Maybe I'm missing something here?

    Second, you are inferring incorrectly from Jeff's comments. A leader that activate his and adjacent hexes is not marked OPS COMPLETE UNLESS he does nothing else in the impulse. And to ascertain that, you have to wait until the end of the impulse.

    If he help other firing units after activating his or adjacent hexes, he is marked FIRED. If he moves after activating his or adjacent hexes, he is marked MOVED (or LOW CRAWL if he low crawled). If he Assault Move after activating his and adjacent hexes, he is marked with an ASSAULT MOVE and will be marked with a FIRED if and when he helps accompanying assault moving units to fire, an event that could happen in this or a later impulse). If he tries to spot after activating his or adjacent hexes, he is marked OPS COMPLETE.

    Think of the act of activating his and adjacent hexes as a free action. If, at the end of the impulse, the leader did nothing but this free action, he is THEN marked OPS COMPLETE, so as to insure he can't act in another impulse.

    Carlos, if you want, I could play a game with you on VASSAL. It would probably clear up a lot of questions for you.
     
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  14. Carlos S. Olivares Pérez

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    Thanks, guys. Now is crystal clear. To be honest, the situation of a Leader only activating (and doing nothing more) is very, very strange. I think that I have never a situation like that, and so I was thinking that the Ops Complete marker of the Leader appeared instantly after the activated units do something (not at the end of the Impulse as you correctly noted).

    Stéphane, I also make the Spotting Attempts at the beginning. I think that I have never made an attempt after an Impulse.

    Thanks again. You are great, guys.
     
  15. Stéphane Tanguay

    Stéphane Tanguay Moderator
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    Yes it is a rare situation where a leader only activate units and does nothing else but I've seen that when the leader is sitting only with shaken units and you don't want to move him out of the hex, so as to be able to rally them at the beggining of the next impulse. And even then, I would be looking for a hex to spot for the leader, so as to maximise its use.
     
  16. Barthheart

    Barthheart Moderator
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    Just a short note about spotting. In all the games of LnL I've played since 2004, I've probably made about 10 attempts... total.
    I almost never make spotting attempts. I find there is generally no need to.
    If you are attacking you should never be making spotting attempts. You usually just don't have the time to waste on them. Move units to draw fire. Make the defender reveal himself.
    If you are defending again you should never need to spot. The attacker is on a schedule, he'll have to move eventually and then you can shoot at him.
    Now this is just my opinion but most of my opponents play the same way... once you get used to the flow of the game.
     
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  17. Jeff Lewis

    Jeff Lewis Designer

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    Yes, for the tactically savvy player, spotting attempts are rare. Like Vance wrote, the flow of the game and the attacker's urgency makes spotting (or more to the point: being spotted) occur through primary actions--firing, moving, etc. As an attacker, maybe if you have created a rally spot and the Leader there has nothing else to do that turn (no OBA to call-in), then making a spotting attempt can be useful. Otherwise, let the game flow.
     
  18. Qwirz

    Qwirz Member

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    Yep. I'm with Vance on this.
     
  19. Stéphane Tanguay

    Stéphane Tanguay Moderator
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    Well it's a matter of playing style. Myself, I generally make a couple of spotting attempts every game, even more so when I'm on the attack. I find it useful to spot, fire and shake a killer stack that is waiting for me to move in the open. Sure I try to make those spotting attempts in favorable circumstances (such as spotting in degrading terrain, with a +1 leader, netting 66% of success) but sometime, even a 33% is better then doing nothig with a unit because moving it in the open would be suicidal. OTOH, I have almost never used smoke.
     
  20. Carlos S. Olivares Pérez

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    In my three last games, there were two Spotting Attempts. But this not only depends on the player style. I think that also the type of mission (scenario) is very important. Or if you have many buildings. The great thing of the system is that you can use them or not, but you always have that possibility (as with the Smoke and many other things).
     

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