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Spotting question

Anton

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According to 10.1 Spotting: “Leadership Modifiers apply and are subtracted from the die-roll”. The questions are:

1. If Leader making spotting attempt, could he gain his LM modifiers from himself?

2. If 2 Leaders present in the hex and 1 leader making spotting attempt, could he gain LM modifier from himself and from another leader in the same time?

3. If MMC making spotting attempt and receive +1 LM from leader in the same hex, will the leader be marked ops complete after that?

4. Could helicopter make spotting attempt after flying in the same impulse?
 

Stéphane Tanguay

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1. Yes and, to be frank, I would not allow LM to be applied to the die-roll of another unit. Also, it is counterproductive because, if you fail, you have 2 units marked OPS complete, the spotter and the leader
2. I'd say no. See above
3. Yes but see above
4. From 19.2.3: Flying helicopters cannot spot enemy units, even units in the same or adjacent hex.
 

Anton

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1. Yes and, to be frank, I would not allow LM to be applied to the die-roll of another unit. Also, it is counterproductive because, if you fail, you have 2 units marked OPS complete, the spotter and the leader
2. I'd say no. See above
3. Yes but see above
4. From 19.2.3: Flying helicopters cannot spot enemy units, even units in the same or adjacent hex.

Thank you.
4. I mean, could helicopter make spot attemt after flying and changing to hover mode.
 

Stéphane Tanguay

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Well, the rules seems to imply so, considering that the sentence following the previous one is :
They must first shift to hovering mode, but hovering helicopters spot units without penalty

but they also seems to imply that it must be done at the beggining of the impulse:
Helicopters can attempt to spot enemy units and still move and fire in their impulse

Considering that:
Units marked with Fired, Moved, Low Crawl, Ops Complete, Stealth or Assault Move markers cannot spot for yet unspotted units

And that a helicopter would be marked moved after flying and entering in hover mode, I have to say no
 

Anton

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Well, the rules seems to imply so, considering that the sentence following the previous one is :
They must first shift to hovering mode, but hovering helicopters spot units without penalty

but they also seems to imply that it must be done at the beggining of the impulse:
Helicopters can attempt to spot enemy units and still move and fire in their impulse

Considering that:
Units marked with Fired, Moved, Low Crawl, Ops Complete, Stealth or Assault Move markers cannot spot for yet unspotted units

And that a helicopter would be marked moved after flying and entering in hover mode, I have to say no

Yes, but Helicopter that moved is not marked with "Moved" marker after its movement, according to rules. Player must mark such Helicopter with Ops Comlete marker. Also Helicopters has special type of movement, neither Assault or Generic. To my taste, helicopters should be able to spot attemt after flying and changing to "hover" mode.
 

Stéphane Tanguay

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You are right they are not marked moved, they are marked Ops Complete but units that are marked Ops complete cannot spot anyway. And to my taste ( :) ), helicopter should not be able to spot an enemy unit after flying across the map and coming to a sudden halt. Spoting requires some commitment, observation,e tc. That would make them the only unit able to spot after moving. Why an infantry unit could not be able to spot at the end of its movement, considering it is moving slower and thus is probably mroe able to spot an enemy unit?
 

Anton

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You are right they are not marked moved, they are marked Ops Complete but units that are marked Ops complete cannot spot anyway. And to my taste ( :) ), helicopter should not be able to spot an enemy unit after flying across the map and coming to a sudden halt. Spoting requires some commitment, observation,e tc. That would make them the only unit able to spot after moving. Why an infantry unit could not be able to spot at the end of its movement, considering it is moving slower and thus is probably mroe able to spot an enemy unit?
Yep, its seems reasonable. But at the same time Helicopter can fly across all map, suddenly halt and HAS time to disembark passengers, which is not a sudden process :). I think, during this time, gunner or pilot or whatever should observe the surroundings with holding breath and he has time for it.
 

Stéphane Tanguay

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Yes, there is truth in there.I'll guess I'll just stick to the fact that unit marked Ops complete can't spot. I think the intent here is to have unit that want to spot do so at the very begginning of their impulse.
 

Jeff Lewis

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According to 10.1 Spotting: “Leadership Modifiers apply and are subtracted from the die-roll”. The questions are:

1. If Leader making spotting attempt, could he gain his LM modifiers from himself?

2. If 2 Leaders present in the hex and 1 leader making spotting attempt, could he gain LM modifier from himself and from another leader in the same time?

3. If MMC making spotting attempt and receive +1 LM from leader in the same hex, will the leader be marked ops complete after that?

4. Could helicopter make spotting attempt after flying in the same impulse?

Stephane has most of this covered.
1) Yes
2) No
3) Yes (Just have the Leader make the Spotting Attempt; or, better, wait for the enemy to conduct actions that make hexes they occupy spotted).
4) Yes. If it's in flying mode, it can fly anywhere on the Map, switch to hover, perform a spotting attempt and then fire at the just-spotted hex or another already-spotted hex. If could fly, switch to hover, fire at an already-spotted hex and then make a spotting attempt--despite how bizarre this seems. I think it's just instinct that players who do make spotting attempts tend to do it as the first thing during an impulse (and remember that a spotting attempt does not constitute an impulse if that's all you do; it's a pass). So, it's not a rules violation, it's just an uncommon way of conducting your side during an impulse.
 

Stéphane Tanguay

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Jeff, my last answer was based on the fact that a helicopter would be marked Ops complete after moving (and Fired after firing), as per 19.2.8:

Mark helicopters that move to a new hex, change modes or unload passengers, with an Ops Complete marker. Place a Fired marker on those that fire, replacing the Ops Complete marker, if applicable.

Thus they would be marked Ops complete BEFORE getting the chance to spot and, therefore, not allowed to spot, as per 10.1

Units marked with Fired, Moved, Low Crawl, Ops Complete, Stealth or Assault Move markers cannot spot for yet unspotted units

but as you said it, it is usually better to spot first thing in the impulse, because you can then take advantage of it right away instead of seing the just spotted hex become unspotted because all units in it move out of it (out of LOS, low crawling, etc.)
 

Jeff Lewis

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Jeff, my last answer was based on the fact that a helicopter would be marked Ops complete after moving (and Fired after firing), as per 19.2.8:

Mark helicopters that move to a new hex, change modes or unload passengers, with an Ops Complete marker. Place a Fired marker on those that fire, replacing the Ops Complete marker, if applicable.

Thus they would be marked Ops complete BEFORE getting the chance to spot and, therefore, not allowed to spot, as per 10.1

Units marked with Fired, Moved, Low Crawl, Ops Complete, Stealth or Assault Move markers cannot spot for yet unspotted units

but as you said it, it is usually better to spot first thing in the impulse, because you can then take advantage of it right away instead of seing the just spotted hex become unspotted because all units in it move out of it (out of LOS, low crawling, etc.)

I think it's an interpretation thing here. I view it that a Helicopter is not Ops Complete until the end of its impulse, thus after the spotting attempt in question. It's sort of ambiguous as written, even in V5. And it does make it seem like the only time they can make the spotting attempt is if they are in hover at the start of an impulse and have yet to do anything else.

Regardless, I obviously have to provide more clarity on this in V5.
 

Jeff Lewis

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I think for the sake of consistency I'll amend the helicopter rules so that only helicopters that have yet to fire or unload/load passengers can perform a spotting attempt; thus it can still change modes, from flying to hover, and make the spotting attempt.
 

Stéphane Tanguay

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I think it would be more consistant with the spotting rules for other units to not allow helicopter that moved or fired to be able to spot but then, helicopters are already in a separate class from other units; either way, I don't think it will matter much, although my preference is for the former.
 

Jeff Lewis

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For V5.0, settled on: A helicopter that has not moved or fired can make a spotting attempt. It can change from flying to hover mode though.
 
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