Strike Force Africa

Discussion in 'World At War 85 Series' started by XXXXX, Mar 6, 2019.

  1. XXXXX

    XXXXX Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2019
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    HI All

    I've invested in the kickstarter - I'm really exited on the new World at War series , and in particular the potential module on Strike Force Africa

    I can understand the need for play balance, counter limitations and flexibility in hypothetical scenarios, but I have serious concerns on the units listed in the Strike Force Africa page for SADF, UNITA, FAPLA and Cuban units.. I note (although I can't currently trace it), the order of battles have been discussed in this (or another forum), but I'd like to add my two cents.

    SADF
    I'd base any South African continent on 61 Mech Battalion, which was the mainstay of SADF conventional forces in the the 80's. The TOE evolved over the years, but like suggested elsewhere I'd base it pretty much on 61 Mech as deployed in 1987/1988 in the Cuito battles etc. Something along the lines of;
    2 x Mech Infantry Companies (Ratel 20). - (Note for completeness the Ratel 20 is a IFV (not a Recce vehicle as listed on the Strike Force Africa page)
    1 x Armoured Car Squadron (Ratel 90).
    1 x Tank Squadron (Olifant tank) - (Comment - make sure you model the correct model of the Olifant0
    1 x Anti Tank Platoon (Ratel 90)
    Mortar Platoon (Ratel 81)
    Anti-Aircraft Troop (Ystervark)

    4 SAI battalion followed a very similar OOB

    As alternatives for the above (or perhaps cross tasking), I'd consider units either parachute formations (1 Para Battalion) or 32 Battalion contingents. Perhaps (and depending on the scenario) deployed on foot or as motorized infantry (Casspir or Buffel). 32 Battalion also adds a further dimension in the deployment of the Ratel ZT-3 (A missile armed ratel) in the Cuito Battles

    If you were looking at stretching the envelope for hypothetical battles, I'd consider the Rooikat AFV (too late for the border war, but certainly an interesting vehicle), or such oddities as a 106mm RR armored Ferret.

    Anyway - enough on the SADF. If anyone would like more detail, I can probably provide it (including info from official documentation).
     
  2. XXXXX

    XXXXX Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2019
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    In respect of FAPLA, the below is a often quoted listing of losses around the 1987/88 Cuito battles. I don't want to get in to the debate on how accurate the information etc, but it certainly gives a indication on the equipment usage of FAPLA.


    94 Tanks [My note - most likely T54/T55)
    94 BMP-1s
    64 BTR-60s
    32 BRDM-2s
    2 BTS-4 tank transporters
    4 M-46 130 mm guns
    11 D-30 122 mm guns
    33 BM-21s
    3 BM-14s
    7 SA-8 SAM systems
    5 SA-13 SAM systems
    3 SA-9 SAM systems
    33 SA-14 and SA-16 man-portable SAMs
    1 ZSU-23-4 SPAA
    20 ZU-23-3 AA guns
    5 Radar systems
    4 Communications vehicles
    7 TMM Bridging vehicles
    377 logistic vehicles

    Again, I have order of battles for FAPLA - but I do regard them as less accurate than my SADF information
     
  3. XXXXX

    XXXXX Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2019
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    For Cuba - I do realize that you probably want to provide opposition for the Marines - but I wouldn't use T-62's, and restrict armor to T-55's as being accurate for this time period.

    Anyone - If you'd like any further information - please do not hesitate to ask
     
  4. Keith Tracton

    Keith Tracton Member
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2016
    Messages:
    203
    Likes Received:
    59
    Looking forward to getting this out to you!

    As far as Strike Force Africa, what you see on the page is a draft of materials we had at the time, so much has been done in terms of research since but we are nowhere near done that. The scenarios that come to us were from my co-developer Matt Lohse, who had done some amount of research but the scenarios were by no means finalized. I am looking forward to working with him on developing them fully for the game. We will be collating that with information from one of our other researchers, as well as my own research, before we can attempt to finalize scenarios, formations or equipment choices. Lots to go through still. :)

    I want to thank you for your information and perspective on the Cuito battles, fascinating really. However - and I hate to disappoint - I can say that we will defiantly be using the 1985 timeframe as that syncs with the timeline of rest of the games in the series. That would be the South African incursions into southern Angola, to deal with the elephant in the room at the time: 25,000 Cuban troops there. We just stretch that a little in the direction of another front in WWIII. :) Also we will provide some other surprises in that module; thats all I can say for now. ;-)
     
  5. Keith Tracton

    Keith Tracton Member
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2016
    Messages:
    203
    Likes Received:
    59
    Thanks! I will double-check my research on that as I get closer to the mark. This kind of detail I tend to focus on to some extent: the best example was the revision of Storming the Gap to include T-80s rather than T-72s for the Soviets in GSFG. I just have to get my research ducks in a row for T-55 v. T-62. :)
     
  6. XXXXX

    XXXXX Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2019
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Looking forward to in and glad its making progress. Do we have any rough timelines on release?

    I'd imagine formations could roughly be the same, but equipment fit out would be rather further back on the tech spectrum. On the South African side, no Ratel ZT-3 (and definitely no Rookat's) . Tank's would be the Olifant Mk1 or possible Mk1A. Ratel 20's would be good for this time period, and the main armored car or anti-tank vehicle would be the Ratel 90, although perhaps supplemented by the Eland 90(AML90) in second rate formations.

    Note that for info purposes, although SADF deployed tanks to the border regions at various stages - there first combat deployment was in 1987/88. All of the raids (and Operation Protea 1981 is a classic example) they were excluded from the order of battle. I'd argue that any potential (hypothetical) escalation (as actually happened in 1987/88) would result in deployment of Olifants. Until then, anti-tank support would be provided by the less glamorous weapon systems. In 1985, this would be the Ratel 90, but at various stages it would have been 106mm RR, Entac's, Eland 90 or Milan's

    FAPLA would probable have transitoned to the T55 from the T34. BMP1's would be used as command vehicles (at best), and I'd probably restrict FAPLA to BTR-60's and BTR-152 (besides truck bourn infantry). I would probably be heavy on towed support weapons such as the ZIS-3, ZU-23-2 etc

    On the Cuban side, although T-62's were delivered to Cuba in the 70's, they were NOT deployed to Angola until 1988 and although they did not meet the `South African's in combat - there presence, or supposed presence (-: , gave the South African's a scare......
     
    #6 XXXXX, Mar 9, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019

Share This Page