User made scenario's

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Dave,

There is something that I don't quite understand in the new scheme:

The game engine will be free, but we pay for scenario-packs. That I understand.

When the engine upgrades, there will be upgraded scenario-packs for sale, or can we upgrade our existing packs like it was possible in the old scheme?

In the first case, what happens to user made scenarios?

In the second case, how will you generate your income?

Or -and that would be the best for everybody - will there be enough new content to both generate your income and make us happy with new battles?

It would be unfortunate if user made scenarios would get into competition with your income, while at the same time they form a valuable enrichment of the game.
 

Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor

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Prior to CO2, you could open a scenario file in the Game or ScenMaker and it would be automatically converted. This made it easy to update user scenarios to the latest version. But with the new business model where we rely on just the sale of data, we can't allow users to automatically upgrade their stock scenarios.

Under CO2, files will be typed as either "stock", "derived" or "other". You will be able to open a stock scenario but won't be able to simply save it using the same name. You will have to do a Save As and give it a different name. Moreover, before allowing a save of a stock or derived scenario, the code will check to see if the scenario has substantially changed. It will determine this by ensuring that there is at least a minimum variation (+/-20%) in the number or active units (ie those on map at start or actively arriving as reinforcements) or the number and/or location of objectives. If it has not changed substantially then you won't be able to save it. You can however, export force lists from it and otherwise inspect the data.

Scenarios created prior to CO2 cannot be opened in the Game or ScenMaker. We had to do this because there was no way of differentiating stock scenarios. But we are not going to leave our intrepid scenario designers high and dry. We will be offering a free upgrade service for any user created scenarios, created prior to CO2. Just send them to support[at]panthergames.[dot]com. This service will be available for a limited time, namely 90 days from the time we release CO2.
 

john connor

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Wow. That seems like an awful difference, on the face of it. Not sure what it means in practice though.

3 questions:

1. So the creation of tiny test scenarios, as so often happened in the past - I recall for example all those very useful tests someone did pitting armour against half-tracks - would still be easy if enough in the original has changed (more than 20% of units etc). So if, for example, I want to run 2 Panthers against 2 Shermans then - in the past - I would get up, say, Manhay, in scenmaker, delete all the units except the 2 test units, delete all the objectives save one for each side and save it as 'test panther'. That will still work no probs? Is that right?

2. But if - as I have done in the past - I simply want a bit of fun and wish to put a Coy of Tigers in the Manhay scenario, creating a variant, then that is no longer possible? Because a single company would be nowhere near 20% diff? Is that right? I hope not. I hope I'm being a bit dim here...

3. Just to clarify. NONE of the user made scenarios - not Woensdrecht, not Epsom, not Brabant, none of Chris's EF scenarios etc etc, not the excellent D Day one I'm presently playing, and all the rest - NONE of these will work in CO2 and cannot be converted except by the author sending them to you? That right?

Peter
 

Daz

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Don't forget you will still be able to play them on your current version of the game Pete.
The new version as far as I am aware, will be completely separate to the old version, so you can keep both installed, and play whichever versions of the old scenarios you want.

For things to progress though, I think we are going to have to swallow some big changes in the game, good and bad.
This game has to make some money for Panther somehow, or the series is doomed.
 

john connor

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The fear is that if the data (scenarios) are not protected in some way then people will just give them away etc., I assume. Does Dave think that kind of behaviour has lost him revenue in the past, then?

But am I right about question 2 above? There will be an editor, but it's functionality will be limited, so that I won't, for example, just be able to add a company of Tigers to the Manhay scenario?
 
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Daz

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The fear is that if the data (scenarios) are not protected in some way then people will just give them away etc., I assume. Does Dave think that kind of behaviour has lost him revenue in the past, then?

Do you mean with pirating of the expansion packs, like the Highway to the Reich, and Battles for Greece?
I have no idea, but as the sales of the scenario packs is their only income, the game engine being free of course, it might be a good idea to put some kind of protection on them.
I must say I was very pleased to see there will be no DRM, that was a very good move in my opinion, genuine customers hate it even more than the pirates I think.

As to your question 2, that's also how I read it, but would need Dave to confirm it for you.
You will have to add 20% more Tigers, that will make things interesting lol
It is a bit confusing I must admit.
Maybe it will become clearer once we get our hands on it ;)
 

TMO

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Will we be able to edit estabs? Personally, I like the ability to tinker with current scenarios (breaking down a recon coy into its constituent pls for instance). Will this ability be lost?

Regards

Tim
 

Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor

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I woke up this morning with a different method for handling "derived" or cloned scenarios. Rather than a "substantial change" test we could allow minor variations to be saved but we would instead insist that the original scenario was present within the game directory and that its version was the same or better than the engines minimum version. In other words that the original was up to date. WHat do you think of that?
 

Rob

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I woke up this morning with a different method for handling "derived" or cloned scenarios. Rather than a "substantial change" test we could allow minor variations to be saved but we would instead insist that the original scenario was present within the game directory and that its version was the same or better than the engines minimum version. In other words that the original was up to date. WHat do you think of that?
Hi,

Sounds better than the original option. At least people will be able to undertake "minor" customization of stock scenarios.
My 2 cents.......

Rob.
 

Joe98

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I like playing scenarios with that do not have too many troops.

In the editor I have deleted troops from both sides and saved under a new name.

If I can no longer do that I'll stick with the old game.
 

Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor

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Joe as I posted earlier (post#8 above) we wont be employing that substantiality test. So you will be able to delete units etc - no problem. The only restriction we will make will be that if you modify a stock scenario you will have to save it under a different name and you will have to have the latest version of the stock scenario to play your derived scenario in the game.
 

Joe98

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That's perfectly OK thank you

I would never change a stock scenario and then save it under its original name!
 

john connor

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I sometimes change custom scenarios and then save over them. Lol. Because I can get them again easily enough if I want the original. I've just changed the maps for Chris's (CapnHillrat) Tartar Ditch and Taganrog scenarios for example - a tiny change to movement motorised rates for minor river layers - and I no longer have the originals. But they're there on the site if I need. I wouldn't do it with stock scenarios though, because then I'd have to reinstall the whole game to get to the originals. Tiny changes (like the one mentioned above) are quite common, I think (even to stock scenarios), sometimes to correct errors, sometimes as a preference, but it's no hardship to save them under a different name and the solution you've come up with is excellent Dave. Great stuff. Thanks for re-thinking it.
 

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