WaW85 Rule 2.3.7: Rebuild the Formation Deck

Discussion in 'World At War 85 Series' started by LongTom, Jan 31, 2020.

Tags:
  1. LongTom

    LongTom Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2016
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    This rule says:
    "If a Formation did not activate during that turn, the player withholds all but one of the End Operation cards from the deck and places that Formation's HQ counter on it. Both players may end-up with a End Operations card this way."

    Let's say there are three End Operations cards in the deck (I know the default is two but per the rules there can be more). If I withhold all but one of them when rebuilding the deck, I have withheld two and there is only one in the deck. I don't think this is the intent, but this is what the rules say. It looks like the rule was written to attempt to account for more than two End Operations cards being in the deck, but incorrectly.

    Further, if I have two End Operations cards in the deck, and both players had a Formation which did not activate, and I withhold all but one of them when rebuilding the deck, then there won't be two End Operations cards withheld for the two players to put their un-activated Formation counters on.

    I believe the rules should say "withhold one Operations card for each side that has one or more Formations which did not activate."
     
  2. Barthheart

    Barthheart Moderator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2013
    Messages:
    594
    Likes Received:
    129
    Well, if there are 3 End Op cards and only 1 formation did not activate, then the deck would still contain 2 End Op cards and the draws could end again with the left out formation not activating again.
    So I think the wording is correct for 2 or 3 End Op cards if one formation is stalled.

    If two or more formations are stalled, then taking only 1 End Op card out, if there are only 2 in the deck, it would not be added back in until all stalled formation had a chance to activate.

    At least that's how I read it.

    But I agree the wording is not as clear as it could be.
     
  3. Jeff Schulte

    Jeff Schulte Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2015
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    5
    The turn can only end when the 2nd EOT card comes out. If you withhold all but one, then the turn cannot end. The purpose of withholding the cards is to prevent the turn from ending before the missed formations activate (so they cannot be skipped two turns in a row).

    For example, three formations got skipped last turn and there are three EOT cards in the deck. Take two and put them aside for the next turn. Place the three HQs from the skipped formations on the two withheld cards.

    start the turn as normal drawing cards for activations. As the skipped formations activate, the HQ comes off the withheld EOT cards. Once the last HQ comes off, shuffle the two cards back into the draw pile. Only now is there a possibility of the turn ending because a second EOT card can be drawn.

    I hope this clarifies the issue.
     
  4. Starman

    Starman Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    14
    The question raises a reasonable concern on losing a HQ bonus.

    Without extra counters the easiest solution is to hold out the formation card(s) shuffled face down and select one after each end of turn comes out, if any left when the triggering end of turn comes (2nd) out then draw one and shuffle the end of turn back in (if the only card(s) remaining is end of turn then draw the card(s) in order and end the turn)
     
  5. Jeff Schulte

    Jeff Schulte Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2015
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    5
    The temporary loss of the HQ is an understood effect, and is part of the game. The procedure of pulling HQs off map works as designed.
     
    Barthheart likes this.
  6. Devin Heinle

    Devin Heinle Editor
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2019
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    12
    Other than giving a potential bonus for a single unit Op Fire or AA fire or a single unit that may get Assaulted, there really are no negative effects for not having a HQ on the board when its not a Formations turn. Most HQ bonuses only kick in during a Formations turn.
     
    Jeff Schulte likes this.
  7. Starman

    Starman Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    14
    That was the original point all those would penalise the formation on top of it missing a turn.
    So the system is designed to penalise units based on a random draw?

    Not sure that is what Jeff meant to say but it is a repercussion of the mechanism to ensure that a formation doesn't miss two turns in a row.

    It would be interesting to hear the design justification because it certainly weakens units , which can be exploited.
     
  8. Jeff Schulte

    Jeff Schulte Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2015
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    5
    I am just going to say that the play testing included these effects. They are very marginal effects to say the least. I would urge you to play the game and see how it turns out.
     
    Devin Heinle likes this.
  9. Starman

    Starman Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    14
    I certainly will when it arrives hopefully container ismin customs and not lost , all the changing boats seems a bit weird.

    I agree they would be rarer but it still penalises morale/trading checks and fire.

    I do not think my suggestion is any less random formation draw wise than the current one , but just seems a penalty on top of a penalty which could have a major impact or minor one depending on the tactical situation.
     
  10. James Crimmins

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2020
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    1
    We ran into this exact situation, which I exploited, in our first game. I noted on a thread on bgg, it seems randomly punitive and easy to house rule..

    We'll either use an extra chit or give the owner an option to auto deploy back to that stack when attacked.
     
    Starman likes this.
  11. CRFout

    CRFout Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2020
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    6
    Proposed house rule solution:
    When the End of Turn arrives, players may optionally remove from the map any HQs that did not activate that turn, and place them in the ready box.
    Players then shuffle only the cards that were drawn that turn, and place them under the cards that were not drawn, forming the deck for the next turn.

    This ensures that every formation card will be drawn over the course of any given two turn period. It's a bit less random than RAW, but simpler to implement.
     
    Starman likes this.

Share This Page