Welcome to the LnLP Forums and Resource Area

We have updated our forums to the latest version. If you had an account you should be able to log in and use it as before. If not please create an account and we look forward to having you as a member.

Ok, now this really is silly...

BarryJI

Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2020
Messages
22
Points
3
Age
64
Location
Los Angeles
Joe's Bridge as Allies, second attempt.

I did really well, taking all objectives except La Colonie to the north, including the eponymous Bridge, 18.2 / 25 of enemy destroyed, 808 Axis losses vs. 101 for the Allies and...

A Draw??

As I've said before, I love the game but if this is the best I can score when I dominate the battle, seize two thirds of the objectives including the main one and inflict 8x as many casualties as are suffered by my forces, then my motivation to persevere will dwindle considerably. Apart from grabbing La Colonie, there was precious little I could have done better. Like JOE, I took the bridge!! I despair.

And for some reason I can no longer post images but here are the links:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6dulfi9ngce12c1/CO2_JoesBridge_01.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1f3kvfwpe3sx99u/CO2_JoesBridge_02.jpg?dl=0
 
Last edited:

john connor

Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2014
Messages
2,488
Points
63
Age
60
Location
Brussels
You could always just open up the scenario in scenmaker and allocate the points differently. That's not hard. Doesn't really matter what the game says in terms of 'win/lose' I think - nothing turns on it, after all - there's no campaign to carry over results, or anything like that. So I would always think it better to judge yourself historically. Good job on winning the scenario.

All that said, this is a historical scenario which is quite easy for the Allied player. Hence the points distribution, I assume. The points distribution is different for the two sides, which is how the Axis AI was able to cull 61 points from you despite your relative success.

I have posted, long long in the past, about being able to win this scenario as Allies giving only three or four orders for the entire game (not to prove the scenario was too easy, but to show how effective the friendly AI was, in fact.)

The real challenge is to establish, as quickly as possible, as deep a bridgehead as possible, which, I'm afraid, would include taking Colonie. Your final picture doesn't really show a safe bridgehead, does it? I can't see the objective window in your photos, but it's possible you do not even have full control of the bridge with enemy that close. Certainly you do not control Colonie.

The Axis side gets 50 points for keeping control of Colonie, because establishing that bridghead is so important to the Allies and without Colonie it's not going to be much of a lodgement. It gets 25 of those points on an occupation basis - ie as long as you're not controlling it, throughout the game, the points are going up for the Axis. Then 25 points if it controls Colonie at game end. So it's really important to quickly clear, seize and hold Colonie (clear of enemy) right through to the end.

Besides that objective, the Axis needs only to kill a quarter of your force to get another 50 points. You have to kill half his force to get a mere 25 points. So the points are weighted differently for each side in order to make a relatively easy historical situation more challenging for the Allied player. This has the result that you will only be able to win, most likely, by taking and holding ALL objectives very quickly, especially Colonie, and by taking minimum losses along the way. It's a good historical set-up, I think, representing accurately the Allied task. The Axis gets a draw in your game because your bridgehead isn't safe and there are Axis troops very close to it, still dug-in, still able to interdict that crossing. Your mission was actually to stop that happening, and to do it quickly (before the enemy could react and reinforce). If you had got units into the Colonie VP circle quite quickly you would have likely deprived him of at least 40 of his 61 points. 68 to 21 points would have been a good win for you.

It does tell you in the briefing that you are to seize the bridge and that the enemy is likely to react quickly. It directs you specifically to cover all approaches to the bridge. It's true, however, that you are unaware of the exact points distribution on the enemy side (unless you open it up from the Axis side and check, of course - as I've just done). Looking at your own objectives and points you may have been lured into thinking that you could achieve 3 of the objectives and get 75 points, more or less, and that would be a win. But you can never assume that the enemy objectives and points are exactly the same as your own. Victory points aren't generally set up with the sides dividing 100 points between them - so you get 75 and that leaves only 25 for the enemy, for example. It doesn't usually work like that. It's always possible that the enemy mission is set up so that it can also get 75 points, even if you secure a substantial number of your own objectives. If you 'cheat' and open it up from the enemy side (nothing wrong with that, I think) you can quickly ascertain what the enemy is aiming for and how points are allocated. If you don't want to do that then you may have a more surprising game and you may have to plan in a more complex and realistic fashion, not knowing the exact enemy intentions. So, if you consider this mission and map from the point of view of the historical and military situation, as it would have been in 'real life', as it were, looking carefully at the briefing and not just considering the points distribution on your objectives, you would probably have been keener to clear out Colonie. Because it's not far from that bridge, so it's going to be tough to use the bridgehead safely without clearing it properly, no?

But, like I said, just go into scenmaker and half all the points for the Axis objectives (for example). Easy to do. Then the computer will probably determine that you have won. But as the follow-on troops roll across that bridge (under fire) with Colonie still out of Allied control, they will probably know better....
 
Last edited:

BarryJI

Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2020
Messages
22
Points
3
Age
64
Location
Los Angeles
Hey John, as usual, I really value your response. Your argument is compelling and not only has it provided me with another, welcome frame through which to assess my "accomplishments" in this game, it also makes me feel a little sheepish about my complaints...

What you say about about the asymmetrical distribution of victory points is something I really needed to hear. On my first playthrough I was too timid, reluctant to send anything but scouts across the bridge over the first night and planning to push across with better visibility in the morning because my assumption was that the bridge meant everything and that Colonie was a form of "bonus". This was foolish, of course and I got my a$$ handed to me when the enemy secured its side of the bridge overnight. Big loss for me and completely fair.

In the second playthrough I got two tank companies over the bridge on the first night while still fighting over the southern objective (the town of De Groot Barrier) and deploying infantry slightly to the west to face the Axis counterattack south of the canal from that direction. In retrospect, and after reading your welcome post carefully more than once, I now realise that I should have pushed those powerful tank companies further north, even in the dark. As you say, time is of the essence and any attempt to consolidate before pushing north of the bridge -- i.e. clearing the southern objective before committing to the push to Colonie -- essentially sabotages one's chances of taking Colonie in the time available. In my orderly fashion I waited until I had secured De Groot Barrier so that I could commit as large a force as possible to moving on Colonie. Even while the tanks were dug in north of the river, they were destroying everything that came south from Colonie but the lesson learned is that given the quantity of enemy units to the north, not all of which attempt to counterattack at the bridge, you cannot expect to push from the bridge and take Colonie with its dug-in defenses on the final day.

I did secure the bridge, though. I cleaned out De Groot Barrier completely and there was no enemy left anywhere near my FLOT north of the bridge when I pushed up (too late to capture Colonie).

So...thank you again, John. The very fact that you were kind enough to respond in detail and to explain to me the sometimes demanding asymmetrical nature of the scoring in the game and how it corresponds with both historical and tactical reality encourages me to persevere and not to invest all of my enjoyment of this superb game in being able to defeat the formidable AI. I could only have been a millimetre away from a marginal victory on my second playthrough (the needle actually indicated "Win" at the end in spite of the AAR) so it's back to the drawing board.
 

john connor

Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2014
Messages
2,488
Points
63
Age
60
Location
Brussels
Enjoy trying to clear Colonie! As I recall, that's a bit of a challenge. Possible, though. I had more success the less I micromanaged, I think. Just give a handful of Bn level orders (not all at once, you would need to stage progress) and see what your AI subordinates can do...
 

BarryJI

Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2020
Messages
22
Points
3
Age
64
Location
Los Angeles
I don’t know how it’s possible in the timeframe except by attacking with a full battalion north of the canal through the first night in 100m visibility, not a practice that the game encourages. It would then be a struggle to hold the town and secure lines of supply (but it occurred to me that in a battle as short in duration as this, supply is not absolutely crucial to combat effectiveness). I will try it as soon as I feel like more punishment.
 

GoodGuy

Member
Joined
May 20, 2015
Messages
444
Points
28
Location
Cologne
I don’t know how it’s possible in the timeframe except by attacking with a full battalion north of the canal through the first night in 100m visibility, not a practice that the game encourages. It would then be a struggle to hold the town and secure lines of supply (but it occurred to me that in a battle as short in duration as this, supply is not absolutely crucial to combat effectiveness). I will try it as soon as I feel like more punishment.

You need to clear Colonie during the first few hours of the operation. If you cross Joe's bridge and clear the northern perimeter (incl. La Colonie), you'll have enough time to prepare proper defenses. Basically, you use the last daylight of the first day to bring your armor (2nd Bn Irish Guards) across the bridge and push to Colonie. I just replayed this in the original HTTR, and I reached (and cleared the immediate perimeter around) Colonie by 9 p.m.
You also need to send the bulk of the 3rd Bn Irish Guards across the bridge, once the tanks start forcing the enemy to retreat on the northern bank.
It's essential that you use medium or even low aggro settings, as you want to get close to the enemy as quickly as possible.
Your arty unit (and your mortar unit) are key elements here, tank shells, MG rounds and an arty barrage will boot the German defenders quickly.

Once the southern defenders are pushed back or wiped out, your tanks will fire accross the river. In the original HTTR and the COTA game, attacking across bridges seems more like moving where even tank units appear to be pretty weak/vulnerable during the movement across the bridge, I can't remember if its the same in CO2. It used to be a weak point in earlier installments, at least. If it's still like that, then it's wise to place the attack marker just slightly north of the northern end of the bridge and to place a new attack task on Colonie once the tank HQ has crossed the river.
You need to use your mortars and the arty pieces to suppress the enemy on the northern bank - this will give your tanks the opportunity to cross the river with low or even zero casualties.

Once you have placed the new attack order on Colonie, the tank Bn HQ will then order lagging units to get across as well and form up on the northern bank. The unit will then attack Colonie with all attached units. Again, it's essential that you use medium/low aggro, as you need to gain ground quickly.
The household cav is a perfect tool to push resisting enemy coys into the polders and away from Colonie. Max aggro and rapid fire will do the job here. This will give you the opportunity to redirect and commit the tanks at spots with more serious resistance/threats.

Once you have pushed back the enemy and captured Colonie, you set up a classic bridgehead defense, means you defend/occupy all approaches.

For instance, it's a good idea to send 1 coy to the woods just west of the polders between Colonie and the bridge. You should also have some troops at/in Colonie, maybe covered by one of your AT troops. The industrial area east of the zinc factory is a key point, you should send an inf coy, the other AT troop and one 1 tank coy to cover the (zinc factory) road leading to the bridge, let them pick spots in the industrial area and on the factory grounds. Click on the Groote objective marker to check the size of the objective circle. The inf unit and the tank unit should be placed outside the circle, this will be a key element towards the end of the battle, as you need to keep the enemy from getting inside the circle.
The AT troop should be placed behind your tanks/troops, it will be a last measure unit covering the eastern approach, in case enemy tanks manage to break through, you also don't want to expose it to the enemy para units expected to attack from the east or south.

The industrial strip west of the Groote Barrier objective has to be covered as well, I use to place the base unit and the Div HQ unit there, and an AT element (if I can afford to place it there), along with my mortar unit behind it (at a safe distance). That is a neat combo, as the Div HQ has some tanks (iirc), and your inf coy and the AT troop can handle incoming infantry/armor, once they're dug in.
The woods right at the river (just north of the Groote industrial site) may be occupied by remnants of the enemy bridge defense detail, so you need to scout that area once it's dark. Sending 1 inf coy + 1 tank coy to the bridge north of Lommel (Weyrken Road Bridge objective) will keep the enemy from flanking you. These 2 units should be sufficient to cross the bridge and clear the northern bank.
That bridge is not an objective, but reducing the enemy's (flanking) options will be key here.

If you send 1 tank coy to Neerpelt at the start of the mission, then you'll have the opportunity to shoot across the river, where then you'll be able to fire at (and decimate) the regiment forming up in Broeseind. Early action here may seriously delay their attempt to reroute and move to Colonie.
On Day 2, you need to collect your tank units and commit the entire 2nd Bn whereever the enemy paras (and the enemy armor) appear.
My units lost ~ 236 men, most of them tankers and AT troops, one tank unit lost all of its Firefly Shermans, but the enemy lost ~1,650 men.
I played without order delay, you just need to think ahead and issue commands earlier, if you're on order delay. If you feel that the order delay is messing up your timetable, you should use the move order whereever possible, which means that you place multiple waypoints (where you can adjust approaches/routes) with your attack order, so that your units don't waste time with enemy units/remnants that are irrelevant for the mission (but which have potential to seriously delay your units).

See if this approach works.
 
Last edited:

GoodGuy

Member
Joined
May 20, 2015
Messages
444
Points
28
Location
Cologne
The industrial strip west of the Groote Barrier objective has to be covered as well, I use to place the base unit and the Div HQ unit there, and an AT element (if I can afford to place it there), along with my mortar unit behind it (at a safe distance). That is a neat combo, as the Div HQ has some tanks (iirc), and your inf coy and the AT troop can handle incoming infantry/armor, once they're dug in.

This may need clarification: I detached both Bns of the Irish Guards, so its Inf Bn and its tank Bn are acting independently. The only unit still attached to the Div HQ (erm, Irish Guards Group HQ = rather a regimental HQ?) would be the Houshold Cav and the base unit. I tend to detach both (base and cav), though, because the Cav is a key unit here, as it is very useful as firebrigade unit (it's fast and can be dispatched quickly), and because I need the base's personnel to form a key blocking position in the Groote industrial strip. If you pick that area as base point, then your base can still supply the units north of the river, even IF enemy units block all (literally south, east and west) of the approaches to the bridge. While (unlike in HTTR) CO2 bases don't like to be attacked and while they have to rebase after a retreat, I'd say you can still take the risk of putting the base there, as the benefits outweigh the disadvantages and as you can still send the Cav unit or even detach 1 tank unit to protect and push past the base. The Guards Group HQ has 4 Shermans and 1 Firefly, this and the dispatched Household Cav should be sufficient to deal with German units approaching from the West or South, though. The road from the central crossroads to Lommel can be guarded by your arty unit.
It's equipped with ~8 Sexton SPGs, and each Sexton has (or should have) 2 Bren MGs and its main gun ofc., that unit can defend itself for quite a while. I'd recommend to put it on the road just east of Lommel to block the western approach to the bridge.
 
Last edited:

BarryJI

Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2020
Messages
22
Points
3
Age
64
Location
Los Angeles
Thank you so much for such a detailed and useful response.

I think part of my problem is a certain modern attitude towards friendly KIA and the relationship between time and force preservation. I don’t think the equation was quite the same in 1944. I resisted pushing the bulk of my forces over Joe’s bridge on the first night because it was night, there was no recon so I figured I’d establish a shallow bridgehead and wait until the next morning for the big push. I believe I would have taken Colonie using this plan if I had another 12 hours beyond the briefed deadline and I might have limited friendly casualties to a level acceptable by modern standards. This would not have been a consideration in the campaign to liberate Europe from Nazism in 1944, however, and I would argue that the time limit requires the player to fight this as a frontal, attritional battle, which is essentially what worked for you.

When I try this battle again I will push harder but will keep the orders delay and other realism settings as I think they are such a welcome aspect of the game’s approach to operational realism.

Thanks again for good advice and encouragement.
 
Top