quickest movement

Discussion in 'Command Ops Series' started by Jerowen, Mar 6, 2017.

  1. Jerowen

    Jerowen Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2017
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey guys,

    Just got this game last week and I'm having a blast with it! :)
    One problem I sometimes get is that my units move a bit slow. What I mean is: Sometimes I just want my units to rush in and capture a point. Of course, when this capture point is heavily defended, my units will halt and fire. Which is fine.
    However, sometimes a capture point is only defended by a weak enemy unit, while I'm charging in with an armored battalion :). however, the whole battalion stops and takes it time to first destroy/ rout the enemy unit before capturing. Is there a way to increase their capture speed?

    Also, sometimes I just want to move my units from A to B, while ignoring enemy units. is there a way to do this? very often my units come across enemies which heavily slows down their movement, while I just want them to go to their destination asap.

    thanks lads!
     
  2. Kurt

    Kurt Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2015
    Messages:
    681
    Likes Received:
    30
    Hi Jerowen , When I want to move my units quickly into an objective I do not issue an attack order . I usually issue a MOVE order with arrow-head formation and maximum losses, aggression , shortest route . I have found that on balance this method gets physical possession quicker than an attack , give it a try .
     
    #2 Kurt, Mar 6, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2017
  3. Kurt

    Kurt Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2015
    Messages:
    681
    Likes Received:
    30
    okay here is an example of this method ; Here I issue a move order ,
    1.png
    and a progress report , 3.png
    and again , 4.png
    one of my infantry companies has crossed the river , 5.png
    and then finally I have the village . 6.png
    There was no planning or tactical consideration here , just a hasty , mindless rush towards the objective . But it worked in 3 hours .
     
    #3 Kurt, Mar 6, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2017
  4. Kurt

    Kurt Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2015
    Messages:
    681
    Likes Received:
    30
    Whatever your loss and aggression settings , your men will not ignore incoming fire and will occasionally pause to return fire . The only troops who will advance under fire without concern for casualties are the Russians , but they take heavy losses doing this and usually break once they have suffered ~ 50% losses . We have yet to reach the Ost Front kamerad !
     
  5. Jerowen

    Jerowen Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2017
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for your answer Kurt! I'll try it out! What exactly does maximum aggression mean? Does it mean your unit will try to go in gun blazing at short range, or does it mean they will fire at maximum range?
     
  6. jimcarravallah

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2014
    Messages:
    192
    Likes Received:
    5
    Aggression measures how dedicated the the unit is to its task in the face of adversity.

    Maximum aggression means it's willing to absorb more punishment to address that task.
     
  7. Daz

    Daz Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2014
    Messages:
    861
    Likes Received:
    117
    To my knowledge, it effects the unit in a number of ways depending on the task they are conducting.
    • In the attack (attack order) the higher the Aggro Level the more likely the force will engage against enemy units it encounters. The lower the aggro the more likely the force will bypass enemy opposition or run away. Setting the Aggro to Max for an Attack or Probe will maximise the allocation of units to the assault and minimise that to the reserve.
    • In the defence it will result in the defending unit engaging spotted enemy units at longer ranges. It may also make them more determined to defend the assigned location, although I'm not so sure about that one as its very hard to judge its effects, as stubbornness also plays a role here.
    • When inspecting the unit commanders qualities in the command dialogue, Aggro refers to how aggressive or assertive the commander is and to how much initiative he is likely to exercise. Aggressive commanders are more likely to initiate attacks, less likely to bypass enemy opposition and reduce the probability of their unit suffering morale loss.
    • With a delay order (I hardly ever use this order, as it never seems to work as I expect it to) If you want your blocking force to offer stiff resistance then, increase the Losses setting and/or increase the Aggro setting, however, this may not be such a good idea as they may end up trapped rather than withdrawing to fight another day.
    • With a move order, a high aggro setting means they will engage enemy units from longer range and are less likely to bypass units endangering the flanks.
      With the attacks box checked, they are more likely to assault more distant enemy units.
      If your intention is to infiltrate your units, make sure you set the Aggro to min.
     
    #7 Daz, Mar 7, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2017
  8. Jerowen

    Jerowen Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2017
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    once again, thanks for the help guys.
    And what about 'losses'. I guess setting 'losses' to high will make your units care less about their own causalities, and thus engage at closer range when attacking?
     
  9. simovitch

    simovitch Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2014
    Messages:
    294
    Likes Received:
    12
    Yes, higher "losses" will cause your attacking units to ignore losses more before retreating.

    From my notes of old:

    Leaders:
    Leadership A well-led unit is less likely to suffer reductions in morale and cohesion and will be quicker to rally from retreat or rout and quicker to reorganize.

    Efficiency – Efficient commanders can process orders quicker and are quicker to react to enemy actions.

    Determination – A determined commander is less likely to abandon a task, more likely to initiate an attack to take the objective or to attempt to blow the bridge he has been ordered to deny the enemy. A determined commander also reduces the probability of a force losing morale or surrendering.

    Aggro – Aggressive commanders are more likely to initiate attacks, less likely to bypass enemy opposition and reduce the probability of their unit suffering morale loss.

    Judgement –A commander with good judgement is more likely to pick the best option, the best assault approach, the best advance route, the best formation, the best facing. He is more likely to break contact at the correct time when ordered to delay and more likely to determine the best time to blow a bridge.

    Staff Quality – HQs with high staff quality will process orders faster and will cope well with attached units; HQs with poor staff quality are slow to respond and may have trouble organizing their organic subordinates, let alone any attachments.

    Units:
    Experience: Units with lots of experience are better at retaining and regaining morale, retaining and recovering cohesion, firing their weapons, changing formation and facing, deploying and digging in and processing orders.

    Training: Highly trained units are better at retaining and recovering cohesion, firing their weapons, changing formation and facing, deploying and digging in and processing orders.

    Fitness: Fit units move faster, tire less and recover freshness quicker.

    Aggression: Units with high aggro lose less morale and are more likely to fire at or attack the enemy.

    Stubbornness: refers to how stubborn the unit can be in defense and to how determined the unit can be to fulfil its order.
     
  10. Kaunitz

    Kaunitz Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2016
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    2
    Thanks for all the info. It's a pity that none of this is official information. To my eyes these are very basic questions that need to be well documented in the manual (also: basic combat resolution should be covered*). We're still stuck with a lot of cryptic aspects, as nobody seems to know for sure what many unit stats and, especially, order-settings do.

    For example, what does it mean when I read "an aggressive commander is more likely to initiate an attack"? Obviously, this does not refer to a standard attack order for a battalion, which, to my knowledge consists of 1) all units moving to the FUP, 2) assigning support, reserve and attack-elements (based on the aggro-setting of the order?), 3) setting up groups/roles for each group (e.g. right guard/left guard, etc.) and 4) actually launching the attack (the assault group moving forward in the specified formation). None of this is up to the AI of the commander? Also, I can't see how a less aggressive commander could "bypass" the enemy with an attack-order?

    So, perhaps does it refer to enemy contact made during a movement order/task? Here I think that commanders do some re-assessment at longish intervalls to determine how to react to contact. E.g. when a road column's advance guard makes contact, the commander might deploy his formation and attack?

    Or perhaps it refers to higher level HQs only?

    ------------------
    * It would be great to have some basic idea on what's going on when two units engage?

    When/at what range and how often does a unit fire (i.e. fire a tracer)? I suppose suppression or being in retreat-recovery reduces the chance of a unit to fire? Also, I figured out that the actual footprint of a unit (which changes according to formation) does not matter when it comes to range - judging from range-rings, units are always considered to be "points".

    If engaged while moving, when/why does a unit stop? Can the player take any influence here?

    IIt's obvious that a unit's fire can have various degrees of strength. For example, the game uses different sounds to represent different fire-strengths (for small arms, at least). How is the strength of the fire determined? I guess that range+weapons+reliability, formation+facing and cohesion, morale, experience play a role? What are the effects of the strength of fire? One would assume that a greater strength of fire would have a higher chance to inflict casualties on the enemy (red lamp instead of yellow lamp)? This chance, on the other hand, will be modified by the enemy's fortification status (again, we lack information on the stregnth of fortification-status in different kinds of terrain) and formation?

    What about the "rate of fire"-order-option? Does it decrease the chance to fire, or decrease fire-strength?

    On the receiving end: what causes retreat-checks? Does a unit need to suffer casualties, or is being under fire enough to trigger a retreat check? What affects the chances for retreat? Is cohesion or morale more important? How does "stubbornness" factor in here? Do fortifications play a role as well? And how does a unit decide whether it actively retreats or prefers stationary retreat-recovery?

    -------------
    This should not come off as a rant. I love the game. It's just that the documenation is lackluster. Especially in a game like this, I think that players should be given infromation about some (very basic) aspects of the game - like what different order-settings do, what unit- and commander stats actually mean, and how engagements are resolved and how order-delay works. Other aspects, like the AI's routines for different types of orders, are meta-aspects compared to these basic questions.
     
    #10 Kaunitz, Jun 8, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2017
  11. Daz

    Daz Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2014
    Messages:
    861
    Likes Received:
    117
    I agree.

    Like you I love the game, and have managed to work out some of these questions to a degree, but I'm still unsure if I have managed to work out other aspects of it correctly.
    I often answer other peoples queries in the hope that if I have surmised something incorrectly, someone will pull me up on it, or Dave will chip in with the correct answer.
    I often wonder if Dave knows himself all the answers, as he has written hundreds of thousand of lines of code for this game over the years and to go back through all that, looking for answers to things I'm sure he has long forgotten, would take a ridiculous amount of his valuable time.

    To be honest though I have found that its not necessary to know all the variables down to the minute detail.
    You start to develop a feel for the game and its quirks after a short while, and by closely monitoring the reaction of the AI in certain situations, its possible to anticipate which variables are going to be the most important.
    Visibility and cover, have become the variables I most seek out in my games to give me an advantage, especially for defending and attacking infantry.
     
  12. Davide Pessach

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2017
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    2
    I think the best comparison here is Graviteam Tactics. Wonderful games with non-existent documentation and virtually no tutorials.
    I honestly like the process of learning and getting better and there are already enough external resources to keep the players occupied (youtube videos, AARs).
    Still I think this game has so much potential... with the will of putting some money in it for UI/UX, graphics and a bit of marketing this game could easily appeal to a wider audience and become something bigger
     
  13. Hugo

    Hugo Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2015
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    1
    Thanks Kurt for your helpful answer. I have to disagree on one point through:

    you should set aggro to minimum, not maximum to achieve what OP wants.

    By setting aggro to minimum, your force will only engage ennemies to ensure their own safety ("covering fire") during their progression toward the objective rather than at every opportunities ("seek and destroy") when set to maximum. Minimum setting should allow for a faster movement rate as you spend less time firing and thus more time moving.

    I would also suggest that quickest route is usually better than shortest route in the scenario describe by OP.

    Best,
     
    #13 Hugo, Aug 28, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
  14. Kurt

    Kurt Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2015
    Messages:
    681
    Likes Received:
    30
  15. john connor

    john connor Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2014
    Messages:
    1,375
    Likes Received:
    57
    However, if you set aggro to min and the enemy force is bang smack in front of your force, between you and where you want to be, your force's evasion tactics might very well mess up the speed required. They might end up detouring round the opposition a long way. It may be quicker to have them charge striaght at the opposition and engage when they encounter them. Depends on the circs, no?

    I would add, to all the above - as I didn't see it mentioned - that you can give a move order and tick the little attack box option to ensure that they both move fast and when they encounter enemy they have the option of putting in a hasty atack. Move shifts the units in very vulnerable formations (road columns, iirc) and this can be costly on contact. Ticking attack can mitigate this in some circs.
     

Share This Page