Corps HQ getting exhausted

[Bie]

The last couple of ingame days I've noticed that XI Fliegerkorps HQ, my highest commanding headquarters is really getting exhausted at the end of the day. Every evening I give a blanket rest order and I notice that it does rest. This not withstanding it tires really fast during the day. It is not being attacked and its commandload is to much but still bearable.

Both divisional HQ's under it are not nearly as tired as the Corps HQ.

Any idea what is causing this fatigue and if it would affect anything?

 

[Keydet]

I don't know and never bothered to check Sr hq. I rarely move them. This never should be a question for experienced high level hq. Especially with a good CoS. These staffs work by shifts. Bases might be a different matter.

 

[john connor]

How's it's base supply level? I mean the item 'basics' in the E&S tab. Plus, is it in supply? That would be an obvious source of rapid fatigue - a lack of basics. For airborne units it's easy to end up with an undetected enemy unit cutting your supply line between the HQ and the base or SEP, or cutting the supply line between the base and SEP feeding the HQ. Have you been getting cut or suspended supply messages? Just a first thought.

 

[Bie]

How's it's base supply level? I mean the item 'basics' in the E&S tab. Plus, is it in supply? That would be an obvious source of rapid fatigue - a lack of basics. For airborne units it's easy to end up with an undetected enemy unit cutting your supply line between the HQ and the base or SEP, or cutting the supply line between the base and SEP feeding the HQ. Have you been getting cut or suspended supply messages? Just a first thought.

Strange, indeed the 'basics' for the HQ as well as its base are both at zero. I didn't receive any warning that the lines are cut though and it should not really be possible as the base itself is sitting next to the SEP at the airfield. The HQ is further up a hill and, during daytime, has line of sight all the way to the base. So I'm kind of ruling out that enemy units have cut the supply lines.

I'll keep my eye on it, I've got still one more day to go in the scenario. Thanks for pointing out the 'basics' supply problem though John.

 

[john connor]

Sounds like a bug, maybe. Have you a save? Be good to send it to Dave. Post it up in the tech forum and send the save if he asks for it.

But first: What about your SEP? The one near the base that feeds the HQ. Is it still active? Look in the supply tab to see how long each SEP is active. This is another possibility with airborne ops - maybe it is only active for a certain time, after which the base should switch to the next, nearest active SEP, I think, but maybe that's far away? Just my second thought.

Whether the base or HQ are interdicted is a function of enemy Aper influence - use the overlay button to check this. It can happen without an actual enemy unit being between the base and SEP, or base and HQ. There are issues with this which have been fixed for the next patch. bUt even without those impacting it's possible that if there was a period when the base was within Aper control of a mass of enemy units it might have been impacted.

UPDATE: Just looked at the scenario. Which SEP is it - the Maleme airfield SEP? That's meant to run to the end, I think (it's the Historical Maleme scenario, right?). In which case check your trucks, or supply transport method. Have they all been shot up without you noticing (message level set too low? Just guessing in the dark really)? Check if the base has transport still. That's my third guess....

 

[Bie]

UPDATE: Just looked at the scenario. Which SEP is it - the Maleme airfield SEP? That's meant to run to the end, I think (it's the Historical Maleme scenario, right?). In which case check your trucks, or supply transport method. Have they all been shot up without you noticing (message level set too low? Just guessing in the dark really)? Check if the base has transport still. That's my third guess....

Yes indeed, the base is next to the SEP in Maleme airfield and that one runs till the end. I checked the supply chain and they are all green. The log also says that they have both recieved and distributed supplies. I haven't checked the amount of trucks available still though. Some of my transport collumns have been shot at, but nothing major.

I'm not at my own computer, so I'll still check that one later.

 

[simovitch]

The FJ in the Crete scenarios will all start hurting for supply/basics after about 4 days. It doesn't help if their donkeys and man-packs get shot up though. The Airlanding troops have to carry the latter half of the longer scenarios. It's designed this way, more or less.

 

[john connor]

Surely it's not designed so the on-map boss and the attendant base have NO basic supplies at all, Richard, even when a near SEP is fully functional? Sounds like a bug to me, and it rings bells. No?

Bie: Unless Richard comes back and says it IS ok (he knows much more about all this than I, for sure), then I would post it up in the tech help forum and send the save to Dave.

 

[simovitch]

No, it's not perfect for sure. But also remember the public is playing with a rather old version of the game, right? If I wasn't up to my ears in Lorraine scenarios I would play the Maleme scenario with the beta and see how it works now.

 

[john connor]

Good idea. I'll do that tomorrow, Richard, if I get time.

Though, if they have the steam version then they have the option of playing with the latest beta, right?

You playing steam beta, Bie?

 

[ghibli]

Surely I am not an expert to add anything on what you say (I've only read the manual and experimented..). I only want to report that some similar behaviour occurs in other scenarios, Greyhound Dash for instance. The germans receive low supply (20% SEP once a day, iirc) and the higher level base on map give away most of it to lower level ones. As a result all units draining supplies from it gets low on basics (meaning actually 0). I made some checks some time ago -considering also other scenarios- looking at the supply value of the higher level on-map base (checked with Regt, Div, Corps) immediately before and after a resupply event (to avoid loosing in the calculation supplies that go to lower level bases), and it seemed to me that the nominal SEP percentage value of requested supply was never achieved (it was strikingly different with Corps level base in Greyhound Dash). It seemed to me it was roughly divided by the Stock Level (in days) (table 4, pag 112). This particular relation is probably nonsense, in that case I am sorry for having posted it, but the order of magnitude looked like similar to that value and I tried to guess.

 

[Bie]

Good idea. I'll do that tomorrow, Richard, if I get time.

Though, if they have the steam version then they have the option of playing with the latest beta, right?

You playing steam beta, Bie?

Nope, not to my knowledge.

 

[Bie]

So I'm looking through all my savegames I've noticed that up until the day five everything is ok. From day five onward XI Fliegerkorps HQ starts having 'basics' suplpy problems, which results in exhaustion overtime. Somehow, by the end of day seven, the Fliegerkorps base also starts having 'basics' supply problems. At the end of the day both have no basics at all. Continuing to the end of the scenario, this does not get any better and both are just about always out of basics. The rest of the HQ's and bases have tons of basics though and the last couple of days none of my transport collumns have been taken out.

Taking a further look at the Fliegerkorps base though I notice personnel has some wild swings. It has also been working beyond its payload for a couple of days it seems.

D4:
Personnel: 31%
Payload: 32/21

D5:
Personnel: 46%
Payload:23/28

D6:
Personnel: 4% (!)
Payload: 46/10

D7:
Personnel: 46%
Payload: 23/28

D8:
Personnel: 46%
Payload: 23/28

By day four the base sits about 10km from the front-line and is has never directly been targeted. During the operation I am not aware of any major disturbances in my supply collumns. Some have been shot at, but I think those were from other bases (Luftlande).

At this point I'm not sure if it is bug or just something that I've overlooked.

 

[john connor]

Maybe Dave can take a look at this, if he thinks it's fishy. I'm just running the scenario computer v computer full speed to see if I can replicate this. I'll let you know. Thanks for the report and info.

What about manpacks and trucks at the base? How many left?

 

[john connor]

Definitely check the starving bases manpacks and trucks, Bie. .

 

[Bie]

From the evening of day four till the end of the operation XI Fliegerkorps has 359 "50 kg manpack". Don't see any trucks though, unless it's the Kettenkrad. That one also stayed at 35.

As far as I can see I started out with 600 manpacks and 60 Kettenkrads.

 

[john connor]

Not that, then. Thanks.

I'm half way through day 7 (haven't yet read last part of your AAR, but look forward to it) and I think maybe everything is working as intended. No bases have run out of basics, though one (the LL base and it's HQ) have come pretty close at times. What I see, due to the way the SEPs are set up to reflect history, I assume, is that after day 4, certainly, almost all of the supply has to come from the Maleme airfield SEP and to reach my most furthest flung units that's almost 18km through territory that is littered with the enemy. Hence, in my game (the computer's game, actually - since I've just let the computer play itself at full speed) I have many units running out of basics at day 7 because their supply is continually being shot up. I recall that one of the changes made relatively recently (don't recall which update) was one to stop bases and HQs hoarding supplies for themselves whilst their front line troops starved. It may be that what we see now is the bases' and HQ's basic stocks running low (or out) if their front line troops are in difficulty. Hard to say without looking at a save for your game, Bie. But certainly, in my game, with the computer not having taken care to ensure clean supply lines, there has been heavy attrition of supply lines, personel and equiptment, resulting in many failed or suspended supply runs and this has hit the bases and HQs way back from the action, because, I assume, they are having to send stock down the line more, to try to replace that lost (more emergency requests). It may be that changes in the last 2 betas (I'm playing on the very latest beta) have also affected things to mitigate whatever was happening. So, it seems ok (or at least will be when you run the latest beta/update) but worth keeping an eye on it, for sure. I think, if you're running it from steam, that you can choose to use the latest beta in the settings for the game on steam. I would always do that rather than waiting for an official update. It means you're 'testing' the beta, of course, but we're all always testing the game in many ways, so why not have the latest changes?

 

[simovitch]

You know, Dave and I looked at the Crete FJ supply issue a few times already over the last several years and I don't want to use his time for this particular issue right now. It may be that we need to think of "basics" as the consumables needed to sustain combat operations, since no one is dying from lack of basics. Also, manpacks and kettenrads are not efficient means of resupply. Why do you need to get basics to those FJ units, so they can be used ahistorically in the final stages of the Crete battle? The fresh Gebirgsjaeger must finish the thing off.

...But after five days on the island the Germans were beginning to show signs of exhaustion. By day temperatures reached 40ºC and 45ºC. “The lack of drinking water, heavy uniforms, excessive baggage, heavy weapons, lack of any roads and difficult desert-like terrain made life unbearable,” Ringel wrote – and yet his men still showed “excellent spirit”. [MS B-646] To the east in Prison Valley, von der Heydte was not so confident.

The meagre rations, coupled with the unaccustomed heat, was undermining [the men’s] resistance more than they realised. The faces of some of them had grown taut, almost shrunken, their eyes lay deep in their sockets.

 

[Bie]

Yeah, I'm going to leave it for what it is, as my scenario is at an end anyway. Thanks for all the input everyone.

I don't make a habit of checking up on my highest supply base as I assume that one should mostly be able to handle itself. But it sure was a shock to see its sorry state.

 

[Bie]

...But after five days on the island the Germans were beginning to show signs of exhaustion. By day temperatures reached 40ºC and 45ºC. “The lack of drinking water, heavy uniforms, excessive baggage, heavy weapons, lack of any roads and difficult desert-like terrain made life unbearable,” Ringel wrote – and yet his men still showed “excellent spirit”. [MS B-646] To the east in Prison Valley, von der Heydte was not so confident.

The meagre rations, coupled with the unaccustomed heat, was undermining [the men’s] resistance more than they realised. The faces of some of them had grown taut, almost shrunken, their eyes lay deep in their sockets.

Very interesting.

Why do you need to get basics to those FJ units, so they can be used ahistorically in the final stages of the Crete battle? The fresh Gebirgsjaeger must finish the thing off.

Well, XI Fliegerkorps is the highest HQ/base in the scenario. So both Fallschirmjäger and Gebirgsjäger units report and get supplies from it. Indeed, by day five the Fallschirmjäger have had their fair share of fighting and the use of the Gebirgsjäger are crucial in making headway.

My main concern was that if the top base was under/not supplied with basics, that the rest would follow soon. Luckily this didn't really happen though. Yes, some frontline units are getting low on basics, but most have plenty.