LnLT Walkthrough Question

[Johnlondon]

I'm going through the walkthrought, (whihc is excellent so far) and came across what seesm to be comflicting information.

In the scenario rules, it says the following:

Victory Objectives: To win, the Germans must control (rule 22.1) both hexes of the Church (I5, I6) and there can be no Good Order American MMCs or SMCs on the Map.

But then below it, it goes on to contradict itself, saying hex i5 Can't be occupied, and doesn't have to be anyway:

Special Scenario Rules 1: Steeple: The Church Steeple in hex I5 has been destroyed by an artillery shell and cannot be occupied and does not need to be controlled in regard to the German Victory Objectives.

So that is already confusing, as I'm not sure why occupying i5 is listed as a victory condition to begin with, if a few lines later it can't be occupied anyway and actually doesn't matter in regards to the victory conditions.

Furthermore, the scenario has you place US troops in i5, which I also am confused about, as the Special scenario rules above indicate that hex can not be occupied.

I may be misunderstanding the terms "controlled" or "occupied" but I'm confused as to these contradictions. Could someone clear it up for me?

Thanks!

 

[ChuckB]

The LnLT system uses different elevation levels for hills and buildings, which can affect line of sight (and -fire). Take a look at Rules 10.2 and 10.3. The church is a stone building, so it is (by default) a 2-story building (10.2). I can't find it in the rules right now but I would assume that the steeple of the church would be treated as an (even) higher part of the building (basically a 3-story part of the building). There are more rules about such terrain characteristics in Rule 10.4 and 10.6 talks about "rooftops" but I can't find anything specific about church steeples ot the like. I would play it as this hex being a "standard" 2-story building.

 

[Johnlondon]

The LnLT system uses different elevation levels for hills and buildings, which can affect line of sight (and -fire). Take a look at Rules 10.2 and 10.3. The church is a stone building, so it is (by default) a 2-story building (10.2). I can't find it in the rules right now but I would assume that the steeple of the church would be treated as an (even) higher part of the building (basically a 3-story part of the building). There are more rules about such terrain characteristics in Rule 10.4 and 10.6 talks about "rooftops" but I can't find anything specific about church steeples ot the like. I would play it as this hex being a "standard" 2-story building.

Ah, ok, perhaps they mean the 2nd story can not be occupied, and is destroyed, but the first floor is ok.

Since I'm brand new to the system, how do you indicate which floor a unit is on? Is there a counter?

 

[ChuckB]

Yes, there are "upper level" counters - take a look at Rule 10.3 and the examples (assuming you are using the 5.0 ruleset)

And, upon thinking about this more - the church is actually "only" considered a 1-story building (because only 3-hex and larger buildings are considered 2-story and the church is only 2-hexes). So, the church is one story and the steeple would be a 2nd story (not usable here). This makes sense to keep the complexity of dealing with multi-story buildings and their control out of the introductory scenario

 

[Johnlondon]

Yes, there are "upper level" counters - take a look at Rule 10.3 and the examples (assuming you are using the 5.0 ruleset)

Thank you so much, that makes more sense now.

Does this mean that the Germans have to occupy the 1st and second floors in i6 to achieve their victory conditions? (If this wasn't the case, I'm not sure why they would mention i5 steeple being destroyed)

Thank you!

 

[ChuckB]

Thank you so much, that makes more sense now.

Does this mean that the Germans have to occupy the 1st and second floors in i6 to achieve their victory conditions? (If this wasn't the case, I'm not sure why they would mention i5 steeple being destroyed)

Thank you!

No, please see my last response, which I edited probably after you read it. There are no 2-story buildings on this map (none is larger than 2 hexes)

 

[Johnlondon]

No, please see my last response, which I edited probably after you read it. There are no 2-story buildings on this map (none is larger than 2 hexes)

Ah ok, well then I'm still confused, since if it is destroyed and can not be occupied, the US starting in that hex doesn't make sense. Nor does the wording for the Victory Conditions/Special Scenario Rules, as they contradict eachother)

Unless "occupied" means being inside the building, in which case units can still be on the hex, but not "occupying" the building since it's destroyed?

My head already hurts

 

[ChuckB]

The rules only state that the church steeple is destroyed (meaning no 2nd floor in that hex). The building itself is ok and can be occupied. Just treat it as a standard 1-story building

 

[Johnlondon]

Lol, I feel like we are talking in circles...you said there are no two story building anyway?

 

[Rydo]

I'm going through the walkthrought, (whihc is excellent so far) and came across what seesm to be comflicting information.

In the scenario rules, it says the following:

Victory Objectives: To win, the Germans must control (rule 22.1) both hexes of the Church (I5, I6) and there can be no Good Order American MMCs or SMCs on the Map.

But then below it, it goes on to contradict itself, saying hex i5 Can't be occupied, and doesn't have to be anyway:

Special Scenario Rules 1: Steeple: The Church Steeple in hex I5 has been destroyed by an artillery shell and cannot be occupied and does not need to be controlled in regard to the German Victory Objectives.

So that is already confusing, as I'm not sure why occupying i5 is listed as a victory condition to begin with, if a few lines later it can't be occupied anyway and actually doesn't matter in regards to the victory conditions.

Furthermore, the scenario has you place US troops in i5, which I also am confused about, as the Special scenario rules above indicate that hex can not be occupied.

I may be misunderstanding the terms "controlled" or "occupied" but I'm confused as to these contradictions. Could someone clear it up for me?

Thanks!

Each black building with a red dot is a stone building, if made of 3 or more hexes is a 2 story one. With floor 1 and 2. There may be exception here and there. But the clarification was to better explain what floors you need to controll in order to controll the building.

In fact you may have friendly units on the lower floor and enemy ones in the up floor and that mean you don't fully controll the building.

That means units cant go floor 2, if there was floor 2 then you could have had enemies there and so the building wasn't fully controlled.

A good tip is to move up and down in an impulse if you can, to fully take controll of that block of the house. Like some sort of room clearing or be sure there is no one upstairs i think was the original intent.

Example: The SS here controll almost all the building, aside from 2nd floor of hex I2 and both floors of hex J3. You place an Upper Level under the unit one floor higher.

Question to check if you've understood, at what floor is the british squad in J3?

 

[ChuckB]

Please see my first reply - the steeple is obviously handled as the separate floor from the rest of the building - otherwise, the special rule would not make sense (and it makes sense in real life, as church steeples are higher than the rest of the church). So, again - the church itself is a 1-story building (since it's less than 3 hexes in size) and the steeple would add another story UNLESS there is a special modification such here in the form of the special rule. I'm sure that was done to keep the tutorial scenario simple.

 

[Johnlondon]

Please see my first reply - the steeple is obviously handled as the separate floor from the rest of the building - otherwise, the special rule would not make sense (and it makes sense in real life, as church steeples are higher than the rest of the church). So, again - the church itself is a 1-story building (since it's less than 3 hexes in size) and the steeple would add another story UNLESS there is a special modification such here in the form of the special rule. I'm sure that was done to keep the tutorial scenario simple.

I'm not sure why this two-hex building would have a second story (that is destroyed) since two hex buildings only have 1 story. Even earlier in the walkthrough they say:

There are no Multi-story Buildings on Map 15.

Even if the steeple did somehow add a floor as a special scenario rule to the church building.....it's destroyed, and has no gameplay relevance, so why even mention it at all? The "steeple" is not mentioned anywhere else in the walkthrough.

It just doesn't make any sense.

Looking closer at the map, there is actually a steeple.....but again, since this building is only two hexes, (and thus 1 story) why would it need to be mentioned at all?

Up is down, black is white, cats and dogs living together!!!

I'll just move on, pretending the steeple doesn't exist, since it's not in the rules, it's never mentioned anywhere else, and has absolutely no gameplay relevance.

I did have one additional question regarding the system in general, is there no modifier for range? for example, firing at a unit 2 hexes away vs 4, you would think it would be harder to hit the target that is further away.

Is this modeled at all in LnL?

As an aside, so far I am *really* enjoying learning this game. I'm new to wargames in general, so it's a pretty big step up in complexity compared to the board games I usually play, but the depth is blowing me away. LnL did a fantastic job on the rules and walkthrough.

 

[Barthheart]

The modifier for range is taken into account with each units Range Factor. You'll see unit that are primarily armed with submachine guns have shorter ranges, like German Fallschirmjager units.

As for the Steeple. In some scenarios the steeple is in play even though the church is normally a level 1 building. The reason for the SSR in this scenario is that players kept asking if they could occupy the steeple. So the rule against it was added.

Glad your having fun and welcome to the game and forums. Keeps asking questions, that's how we all learn.

 

[Johnlondon]

The modifier for range is taken into account with each units Range Factor. You'll see unit that are primarily armed with submachine guns have shorter ranges, like German Fallschirmjager units.

As for the Steeple. In some scenarios the steeple is in play even though the church is normally a level 1 building. The reason for the SSR in this scenario is that players kept asking if they could occupy the steeple. So the rule against it was added.

Glad your having fun and welcome to the game and forums. Keeps asking questions, that's how we all learn.

Ah ok, now it all makes sense. Thank you very much for clearing that up!

 

[ChuckB]

Ah ok, now it all makes sense. Thank you very much for clearing that up!

Also, if you like learning through videos, LnL has created a series of 65(!) videos (all of them rather short and sorted by topic along the manual) on YouTube that are great to learn the system and/or refresh certain elements: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUdPYZk0bJF23h7LfPmCgcZC_-PdaZx8l

 

[ChuckB]

The modifier for range is taken into account with each units Range Factor. You'll see unit that are primarily armed with submachine guns have shorter ranges, like German Fallschirmjager units.

As for the Steeple. In some scenarios the steeple is in play even though the church is normally a level 1 building. The reason for the SSR in this scenario is that players kept asking if they could occupy the steeple. So the rule against it was added.

Glad your having fun and welcome to the game and forums. Keeps asking questions, that's how we all learn.

Thanks for clarifying the "steeple issue" - I remembered that it is relevant for certain scenarios but couldn't remember exactly where