Retreat Recovery

[blazingPanzer]

Is there a way to estimate how long a unit in retreat recovery mode (not under fire) will take to recover? I've observed units recover very quickly sometimes, and on other occasions take quite a few hours to recover; this can be a bit of a problem when trying to execute a retreat as they just sit there immobile which can allow the enemy to envelope them. Is there anything the player can do to expedite this recovery process?

 

[Kurt]

Now i ain't no programmer and I don't have access to the code algorithm but Dave tries to mirror how things would work in the real world . Retreat recovery for a " real " unit would depend on many variables ;
Morale level - starting morale and current morale , for obvious reasons
Training - better trained units will regroup and get back to business quicker
Experience - like training , veteran units will recover quicker
Fitness and fatigue level - a bunch of tired old men will take longer to get their breath back
Leadership - probably the most important factor , effective leaders will better motivate their men to get back in line quicker
Casualty level - a unit that has lost a lot of men and equipment may be reluctant to return to the fray
Even being short on ammunition could be a factor .
In short , there is not much you can do once a unit has retreated but if its a good quality unit then it should recover quicker than a poor one .

 

[Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor]

Thanks Kurt for the answer which is pretty spot on. One thing to remember is that it takes only minutes to recover from a retreat but hours from a rout. A retreat (yellow status symbol) is a controlled action whereas a rout (red symbol) is not.

 

[Daz]

I know it would probably be complicated to program it, but retreat recovery should be shorter for a move, withdraw, or especially delay order.

I think a lot of the problems with the delay order (and why no one uses it?), is because when a unit with a delay order takes casualties, (a trigger fires in the code that tells them they should pull back to the next position?), and they decide to pull back, they are unable to do so because the retreat recovery has kicked in, due to the casualties, and they get frozen to the spot until they are overrun.

There should be a much lower threshold for their willingness to move, when they have pre planned orders to pull back, as in a withdraw and delay order. Maybe even do away with the retreat recover all together, for withdraw and delay once the orders delay is over?

I think retreat recovery is more important on the attack, where I know it was put in place to try and slow things down a bit, which it did very effectively.
One of the reasons for heavier than historical casualties, which you were also concerned about a while back, may be because of the retreat recovery when the AI tries to pull back?

• My suggestion would be to leave the retreat recovery as is for attack orders.
• Slightly reduce the retreat recovery for defend and move orders.
• Completely remove it from delay and withdraw orders, once orders delay has gone through. This hopefully will make withdraw and delay orders useful again and do a good job od simulating the planning that has already gone into these orders. The men know where they have to go and withdrawing is a lot more attractive when you have sustained casualties than being asked to attack

 

[Kurt]

Makes sense to me .

 

[Rob]

+ 1

 

[Txema]

It sounds very good !!!

 

[Daz]

Looks like I have good support for that suggestion, thanks guys
So I'll keep going with another related suggestion.

If a unit is already in retreat recovery mode, orders delay to that unit should take longer in order to simulate the confusion and duress that the unit is being subjected to.
This would encourage pre-planning of the withdraw or delay order, rather than using it as a reactionary solution to an already bad situation.
This in turn will give an enemy a chance to overrun a badly planned defence.

 

[Kurt]

Agreed

 

[Keydet]

...

I think a lot of the problems with the delay order (and why no one uses it?), is because when a unit with a delay order takes casualties, (a trigger fires in the code that tells them they should pull back to the next position?), and they decide to pull back, they are unable to do so because the retreat recovery has kicked in, due to the casualties, and they get frozen to the spot until they are overrun.

There should be a much lower threshold for their willingness to move, when they have pre planned orders to pull back, as in a withdraw and delay order. Maybe even do away with the retreat recover all together, for withdraw and delay once the orders delay is over?...

The delay experience always disappoints me because it doesn't track with my readings and with my experience commanding infantry troops in actual US Army field exercises. Generally a delay would turn out like this

1. Superior orders a formation to conduct a delay at one or more locations or between the enemy and some geo feature.
a. the superior may order the formation to defend till the last for a maximum possible delay
b. the superior may order the delay till a certain time or for a duration from first contact
c. The superior may order the delay to merely compel the attacker to deploy from line of march and then withdraw (to preserve the formation)
d. the superior may order the delay to be carried out till certain conditions occur (for instance friendly forces cross a bridge or finish a road march)
e. the superior may require requests to withdraw be made to the superior before they be accomplished.

2. Then the formation commander may order his subordinate elements to conduct any type of mission to achieve the delay order. The orders to any of the subordinate formations could be to:
a. attack
b. defend
c. delay
d. movement to contact
e. ambush
f. a combination and/or series executed at discretion elements leader, on-order, or by request.

Some examples come to mind:
1. Interviewed some years ago a retired LtC who was a company commander in 1st bn 109 Infantry regiment. The Bn was in reserve vicinity Diekirch. Late on the 16th his company was ordered into a blocking position. Soon after the only comm he has was with regiment HQ. Over the course of several days he was ordered from one position to another. 109th was conducting a delay. He never had authority to withdraw. BTW he started out under strength at about 125 men. After five days or so he was back down to Huertgen Forest strength of under 30. Never once he said did the Germans try to overrun his unit. The German formations encountered his positions, exchanged fire and went around.

2. LTG Desobry reported in an oral history he gave http://usahec.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p16635coll26/id/106 that he requested to withdraw from Noville and 101st HQ denied the request. His mission was a delay.

3. CCR 9 AD was given a delay order. Once contact was made VIII Corps refused to give permission to withdraw from the Team positions.

I don't have time to dig out other delays from history. What throws me off with the delay order is i can't give the order in the fashion described. Instead the delay order is a crap shoot which may buy some time but most often has the delay force racing away prematurely for unrecognizable reasons without having requested permission to withdraw and often suffering high casualties. (in other words delays seem always to be conducted by raw conscripts.)

I'd like us to seek out and publicly recognize the master of the delay order (whoever that might be), heap accolades and victory laurels on him, and force him to produce tutorials on the use of the delay order.

 

[Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor]

I acknowledge the points you raise their Paul but most of these would require sequential tasking and triggers to implement. The current arrangement was an attempt to implement a delay within the constraints of the existing engine. Can it be improved? Of course but it really needs sequential tasking and triggers to do it justice.

 

[Keydet]

Sorry I gave the link for part 2 (Lots of Viet Nam and General Abrams stuff) you want part 1 http://usahec.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p16635coll26/id/105See section II page 63, the documents page 136.

Dave,

I am largely thinking all that is needed is to have the description of delay in the manual manage expectations. It should mention how complex delay missions are and then say the implementation of Delay here is functionally limited to ordering one of more delay positions for the ordered unit and all it's subordinates and the commander/AI has complete authority to withdraw from any of the positions. For instance a regiment or battalion so ordered will occupy the first delay position with the whole force and the withdrawals are out of your control. You may adjust the stubbornness of the defense at each delay position by setting "xyz" from 0 to 100 with 100 being "hold position to the last round." If you want the delay to be successful it is best to assign it to a leader and unit which is ???????. The "XYZ' tutorial is the delay tutorial.Play it to become accustomed to what the delay order will do.