Sdkfz 251/1 weapon

yugohubo

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Sdkfz 251/1 and 250/1 Personnel vehicles doesnt have mg42-pz and mg34 in their armaments in BFTB.
I searched the forum about this but found nothing about it. From the old AARs i see they used to have them but they don't now. Is it intended estab change or is it miss intended? Because i can change the estab and already did that but i wanna know if it is intended i would play that way.
Also they have their respective weapons in COTA estabs.
Thanks.
 

ioncore

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If you check not only the vehicle itself, but any Estab using that vehicle, e.g. "WF - PzD - Pz Gren Coy (gp)" from BFTB Estab, you'll see it has (among other things):
- 30 leMG.42
- 10 SdKfz.251/1 (w/o MG)
- 2 SdKfz.251/3 (w/o MG)

If you check the KStN.1114c (https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn1114cgpfg1jul44.htm) - which I believe this particular Coy Estab is intended to represent - then you'll see that company would have:
- 2 SdKfz.251/3 (1 leMG each) in Coy HQ
- 3 squads 2 leMG each and 3 SdKfz.251/1 with one leMG each (total 6 hand-held and 3 mounted leMG = 9 leMG) in 1., 2. and 3. platoons
- 1 SdKfz.251/1 with 1 leMG in 4. platoon
Total 2 + 3*9 + 1 = 30 leMG, hand-held and mounted combined.

Now if you compare these figures to the Estab, you'll see that the amount of weapons is exactly right, they've just opted to represent all the leMGs as separate weapons, rather than assign them to SdKfz.

So, one may argue whether this decision to represent mounted leMGs together with hand-held ones and leave vehicles unarmed is "right" or "wrong", but at least it is consistent and unit totals are perfectly correct. If you're ever going to add leMG to SdKfz, then you'll also need to update every single unit Estab subtracting the respective number of leMGs.
 

yugohubo

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Now I understand the reason behind thank you.Just wondering in mechanised units weapons held by personnel or vehicles would change combat efficiency in game but probably not enough to be relevant any ways.
Thank you
 

GoodGuy

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The base version of the medium halftrack 251, the 251/1, was divided into 2 models/revisions.
"A" was meant to carry a Panzergrenadier group with 2 LMG42 (1 or 2 MG 34 or 42 were mounted on the halftrack later on, this came down to personal preference/MG availability, many 251/1 received a shield for the mounted frontal MG42, but the LMG(s) could also be mounted on the sides or in the rear), "B" was meant to carry 2 heavy MG squads (from the Coy's heavy platoon). The LMG's (from the PG group) could be mounted on the halftrack's side and rear, if the respective mount was available.

The 251's MG could be detached from the vehicle and taken into combat but was often usually kept on the vehicle to allow for suppressive/support fire from the safety of the vehicle, so it would only change the combat efficiency, if the game would distuingish between mounted/unmounted state of the vehicle gun and (the troop's) dismounted state. If it would be considered by the engine, then the vehicle MG would be ready to fire at once, while the PG group would have to dismount and deploy their 2 leMGs (or mount these 2 guns on the vehicle side or rear), first.

I am not sure how the game engine is handling this. Does it put in a deployment time even for the vehicle's mounted frontal/rear MG?

The various direct fire guns mounted on the several halftrack versions (like MGs, AT guns, inf guns, Flak guns, turreted 20-mm gun, flamethrower, etc. etc.) were usually ready to fire within seconds to less than a minute (for the higher calibre guns), just the preparation of the mounted weapons for indirect fire (mortars, 28-mm anti-tank rifle, inf gun in indirect fire mode, etc.) may have taken a bit longer.
 
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yugohubo

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@GoodGuy
Yeah, that was exactly my thinking since the mg42 numbers are all the same with what they used to be, but just not mounted on the sdkfz. But i think it would have too little of an effect to be relevant anyways.
Thanks for info and insight.
 

GoodGuy

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It would be relevant where say a mechanized unit would encounter an inf section on foot in the open and out of that section's small arms range. The halftrack gunners (MGs, inf guns, etc.) could open fire from inside the halftracks and unleash hell on the unprotected enemy grunts in front of them, even without having to exit the vehicles.

Or let's say an enemy foot inf unit (small arms + LMGs only) ambushed a Panzergrenadier coy, then it's hard to imagine that the Panzergrenadiers dismounted in the open, if they could use the vehicles' protection and guns to suppress or counter the enemy.
An inf unit without AT guns (ie. without cannons) and without mortars could only spray such mechanized unit with their LMGs, hope for some random bullets to cause one or another casualty and maybe damage the front tyres. But I think even the tyres used to be solid rubber tyres, and the actual steering was done with a transmission that controlled the powered frontal sprocket wheel anyways, basically either the left track or the right track were halted to do the turns, the unpowered front tyres just slighty aided with the steering, so the damage would be very light, if no AP ammunition for the small arms and LMGs was available, and the front tyres weren't really needed to control the halftracks. It was probably wise to withdraw and come back with better weaponry.

The protection level and the added punch may be the reason for the 2nd and 3rd rate units from Germany and (especially) Austria having some initial success with their anti-partisan activities on the Balkans (and partially in Greece) during the early stages of the particular partisan movements. Even older and rather unfit soldiers could develop some punch, if they had armored cars and their weaponry at their disposal (if the terrain layout allowed to use them).
 
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yugohubo

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@GoodGuy
Of course they are relevant in real world. I was talking about in game combat mechanics wise relevance.
For this;
It would be relevant where say a mechanized unit would encounter an inf section on foot in the open and out of that section's small arms range. The halftrack gunners (MGs, inf guns, etc.) could open fire from inside the halftracks and unleash hell on the unprotected enemy grunts in front of them, even without having to exit the vehicles.
Actually i don't know how combat mechnics really work, for example how mechanised dismount and fight etc. but most of my tests via estab and scenario editor saw that, random chance is simply much more effective than mere difference in a weapon used by a platform or personnel on foot.The other more effective things are if i remember correctly: Morale/cohesion, magnitude of aper fp at the combat range(mostly at effective range), of course terrain but not to the degree of random chance untill terrain provides more than 50% direct fire mitigation.

Edit: Of course the static bars of unit are very effective too, and i mostly talk about non armored combat
 

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