Sniper vs Armored Vehicle

[Peter]

In Heroes of the Nam, I had my M-113 fired upon by a VC Sniper and I just wanted a little feedback from you all on whether we resolved this correctly.

My M-113 is moving with a full strength MMC riding inside of it. My opponent interrupted my movement to place a sniper and then fire with the sniper at my moving M-113.

I did not declare my M-113 buttoned so it is assumed open as its default state. The sniper rolls 2d6 and gets an 11 - 1 for target being a moving vehicle = 10. For my defense roll, I roll 1d6 and add the lowest armor value of the M-113 which is a 1. I roll a 1 + 1 lowest armor = 2. So the damage check is 10 - 2 = DC8.

First I roll for my M-113 and get a 5 + 8 = 13 which is x2 its moral of 5 . . . so the vehicle is shaken. I flip the vehicle to its shaken side and place a buttoned marker on top of it.

Then I roll for damage on the MMC riding inside and roll a 3 + 8 = 11 which is x2 the MMC's morale of 4 so he take casualties and is flipped to his shaken side.

Since the M-113 carries units inside, the shaken reduced MMC does not automatically disembark but stays inside the M-113. The M-113 has his movement halved.

Did I get everything right? Seems awfully powerful for a sniper to damage the squad riding inside the M-113?

Thanks,

Pete

 

[Qwirz]

Hi Pete!
Snipers can affect only one unit in a hex, randomly determined.
(Rules version 4.1 pag 33)

 

[Barthheart]

Yes, but more importantly, since the infantry unit was inside an armoured vehicle it cannot be affected by infantry fire.
The armour of the vehicle is protecting the infantry inside from any effects. It's just the vehicle crew in the open hatches that can be affected.

If it was any kind of anti-tank round, however, they would definitely be affected then.

 

[Captain Darling]

Hey Pete,

Barthheart has nailed this, if the M113 is the target then only the ‘exposed’ (sounds a bit rude) crew are affected...

 

[Peter]

Barthheart/Captain Darling, are you guys taking into account what the rules say in 17.2 Small-Arms vs. Armored Targets? 2nd bullet point under "Results" states:

If the attacker’s modified die-roll is greater than the defender’s modified die-roll, the target vehicle and all passengers
(16.1/2) must take a Damage Check (DC); the vehicle goes first. If the vehicle is buttoned, only external (PO or PPO) passengers take the DC.

In my case, the vehicle was NOT buttoned. So this would seem to indicate that the passengers also take a damage check. Correct?

Pete

 

[Barthheart]

Good eye Peter! So yes I agree that if any small arms other than a sniper fires at an unbuttoned armoured vehicle the rule indicate that any passengers inside would indeed be affected.

But I have to agree with Qwirz's original assessment that a sniper can affect only one unit in a hex, and that unit is randomly chosen.
So you'd have to roll between affecting the vehicle crew or the passengers in your case, but not both.

 

[Peter]

Yeah I see from the rules that snipers only effect "one unit" but the given example in the rules is of non-passenger foot units. But the vehicle AND its passengers are all considered one unit per 16.0. The opening paragraph states:

Passengers are considered to be part of the vehicle they are riding in/on, and do not count toward stacking limitations.

So therefore, I would conclude that the passengers AND the vehicle crew are both affected by the sniper's fire since, per 16.0, the sniper is only targeting a single unit (the vehicle and its passengers). Correct?

Pete

 

[Barthheart]

...
Passengers are considered to be part of the vehicle they are riding in/on, and do not count toward stacking limitations.
...
Pete

Pretty sure that statement is only for stacking limitations, my bold.

 

[Peter]

It doesn't seem that the intent of the sentence structure was to indicate that the "part of the vehicle" phrase only affects stacking. If that were the intent, it would have been worded

"Passengers are considered to be part of the vehicle they are riding in/on, and therefore do not count toward stacking limitations." (I added the therefore)

But maybe I'm just overthinking it. It would make sense that if a vehicle is hit by a sniper, the passengers inside are going to be affected as well. The whole 17.2 rules section is presented as a "if this happens, then do this." So if the un-buttoned vehicle is targeted by the sniper, and causes a damage check, then the vehicle AND the passengers take a damage check. There isn't an exception listed. The sniper can only target one thing in a hex. The passengers are inside the vehicle, so if the vehicle is targeted, the passengers are getting shot at too. Surely this was the intent of the rules. Anyone else agree/disagree?

 

[Stéphane Tanguay]

I agree. Per 17.2

Small-arms firing on a hex that contains both vehicle and non-vehicle units must either target a specific vehicle or all non-vehicular targets in the hex.

Passengers (16.0) are considered part of the vehicle in/on which they are riding.

If the attacker’s modified die-roll is greater than the defender’s modified die-roll, the target vehicle and all passengers (16.1/2) must take a Damage Check (DC); the vehicle goes first.

 

[Captain Darling]

Okay Peter as per our online chat in the conversation we are using v4.1 of the rules the below is from v5...

“...17.2 Small-Arms vs. Armored Targets? 2nd bullet point under "Results" states:
If the attacker’s modified die-roll is greater than the defender’s modified die-roll, the target vehicle and all passengers
(16.1/2) must take a Damage Check (DC); the vehicle goes first. If the vehicle is buttoned, only external (PO or PPO) passengers take the DC...”

V4.1 still infers the same thing but we will house rule for an enclosed vehicle like an M 113 only the crew are targets when it is unbuttoned it is just a common sense thing for us.i will discuss it next time we have a session.

Cheers!

 

[Stéphane Tanguay]

Any agreement between gentlemen will always supercede any rule

 

[Stéphane Tanguay]

I agree. Per 17.2

Small-arms firing on a hex that contains both vehicle and non-vehicle units must either target a specific vehicle or all non-vehicular targets in the hex.

Passengers (16.0) are considered part of the vehicle in/on which they are riding.

If the attacker’s modified die-roll is greater than the defender’s modified die-roll, the target vehicle and all passengers (16.1/2) must take a Damage Check (DC); the vehicle goes first.

I have changed my mind on this. See:
https://forums.lnlpublishing.com/threads/snipers-vs-vehicles.5356/