MrLongleg
Member
In the attached save I have a battalion HQ that ;literally fights until the last man is down. It has one man left and still holding my advance. HQ of 1.112
Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor
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What build was this with?
MrLongleg
Member
5.0.12
MrLongleg
Member
Unfortunately I do not have an earlier save. But this HQ was fighting with less than 10 men for more than 90 minutes. At least they are showing incredible morale while surrounded by a whole battalion and pounded with arty.
MrLongleg
Member
Yes, and I agree - after being down to 1 man the last survivor surrendered a couple minutes later
My fear is Dave will make it to easy to destroy the HQ's, as he has already fixed some of the problems with them holding out I think?
What we don't want is for the HQ's to be destroyed to easily as it will make the game a pain to play.
They should be able to put up a better fight than other similar sized infantry units, to simulate the resolve and heightened morale that a lot of the officers have displayed historically.
I have not come across an example like this since 5.0.12, but then I haven't had the chance to play much.
90 minutes is a long time for 10 men to hold out against a Bn attack and close combat with 150 Sturm Troopers, I agree, especially as the HQ starts out with just 45 men.
Maybe we should keep an eye out for more examples before Dave makes to many more changes to them though just to be on the safe side.
Are you aware of the Auto Save feature in the options dialogue?
It will make it easier to report with a saved game if you turn the feature on, for when you come across more examples.
Thanks for reporting it by the way, as I have had a bit of a 'bee in my bonnet' about it for a while now
What we don't want is for the HQ's to be destroyed to easily as it will make the game a pain to play.
They should be able to put up a better fight than other similar sized infantry units, to simulate the resolve and heightened morale that a lot of the officers have displayed historically.
I have not come across an example like this since 5.0.12, but then I haven't had the chance to play much.
90 minutes is a long time for 10 men to hold out against a Bn attack and close combat with 150 Sturm Troopers, I agree, especially as the HQ starts out with just 45 men.
Maybe we should keep an eye out for more examples before Dave makes to many more changes to them though just to be on the safe side.
Are you aware of the Auto Save feature in the options dialogue?
It will make it easier to report with a saved game if you turn the feature on, for when you come across more examples.
Thanks for reporting it by the way, as I have had a bit of a 'bee in my bonnet' about it for a while now
Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor
Panther Games Designer
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I agree with Daz on this. I have seen 30 pers HQs eliminated in half an hour of fighting. I think that's reasonable. I'm going to mark this thread as under watch. Please report any anomalies but only if you have a save to back it up so I can test it.
UNDER WATCH
UNDER WATCH
I may have found something related to this issue. The scenario is "All American over Nijmegen" (5.1.20).
During my play, several battalions from 30. Corps (including the whole Grenadier Guards and a battalion from Coldstream Guards) have been pressing hard on the center of Nijmegen. The assault inside the city perimeter has been going around 12 hours. However, there is a stubborn German HQ unit that just refuses to die/rout. The odds are way way against that unit. In fact it has been surrounded couple of hours now, yet it still hangs there.The HQ had an accompanying artillery unit in the same spot, it also took considerable time to defeat. At least the HQ has a status "Dug in". Take a look at this pictures to demonstrate the situation:
1) This is the situation around 0500 hours. 1/GREN is in the center, 1/COLD in the left flank. The HQ unit is quite precisely where the SS-artillery unit is spotted (I suspect that the spotted unit is in fact the one accompanying it).
2) Next one is from 0933 hours. The HQ is now visually seen. The spot has been under constant pressure and artillery fire. Note 2/GREN is about to launch an assault into the flank of the HQ unit (assault is in full swing around 1100 hours).
3) 1609 hours. The HQ unit has finally been defeated (just a few minutes ago).
I do have saves from few stages of this attack which could help debugging the issue. What do you Dave think: should the HQ survive this long in aforementioned conditions?
During my play, several battalions from 30. Corps (including the whole Grenadier Guards and a battalion from Coldstream Guards) have been pressing hard on the center of Nijmegen. The assault inside the city perimeter has been going around 12 hours. However, there is a stubborn German HQ unit that just refuses to die/rout. The odds are way way against that unit. In fact it has been surrounded couple of hours now, yet it still hangs there.
The HQ had an accompanying artillery unit in the same spot, it also took considerable time to defeat. At least the HQ has a status "Dug in". Take a look at this pictures to demonstrate the situation:1) This is the situation around 0500 hours. 1/GREN is in the center, 1/COLD in the left flank. The HQ unit is quite precisely where the SS-artillery unit is spotted (I suspect that the spotted unit is in fact the one accompanying it).
2) Next one is from 0933 hours. The HQ is now visually seen. The spot has been under constant pressure and artillery fire. Note 2/GREN is about to launch an assault into the flank of the HQ unit (assault is in full swing around 1100 hours).
3) 1609 hours. The HQ unit has finally been defeated (just a few minutes ago).
I do have saves from few stages of this attack which could help debugging the issue. What do you Dave think: should the HQ survive this long in aforementioned conditions?
The HQ's might well be a bit tough still, but this house to house city fighting in Nijmegen is extremely slow going, and maybe with the exception of the HQ, I think is quite realistic.
I used to think there was something wrong with the units holding out here until I researched how tough urban fighting is.
Look at how long Frost and 2 Para held out in Arnhem and even Urquhart managed to hide out for a few days then return to command again.
I'm not trying to say there is nothing wrong here, just giving more perspective to help make the right decision.
I used to think there was something wrong with the units holding out here until I researched how tough urban fighting is.
Look at how long Frost and 2 Para held out in Arnhem and even Urquhart managed to hide out for a few days then return to command again.
I'm not trying to say there is nothing wrong here, just giving more perspective to help make the right decision.
Daz, that's exactly why I (at least first) justified this behavior. This is not a game breaker for me, rather something to wonder about. I do like the fact that the urban fighting is hard and defender doesn't bend that easily. However, when less than 20 men hold out an all over attack of two armored battalions reinforced with two engineer companies with flamethrowers (+ artillery) several hours (remember, 2/GREN hit the flank of the HQ hard and surrounded it), I'm inclined to call this nuts.
STILL, if the HQ unit is acting as it should/is programmed then I'm satisfied with that. Yet I'd like to have Dave's opinion whether there might be something wrong with the code.
STILL, if the HQ unit is acting as it should/is programmed then I'm satisfied with that. Yet I'd like to have Dave's opinion whether there might be something wrong with the code.
Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor
Panther Games Designer
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As Daz says it can take a long time to weed out units from built up areas. You say that the assault started at 1100 and they were finally defeated five hours later. Perhaps its a tad long but really we need more than one instance to form an opinion on this. Try running it through from a save and see how long it takes each time and note down the times. Then we can get an average.
Will do once I found a spot of sparce time. Though to be precise, the HQ unit has been under an attack from two directions (the other one in the flank) from 11 pm onward. Before that it had been in contact with 1/GREN (in varying degree) from the dawn. Around 9.30 am they were getting closer and closer.
Though to be precise, the HQ unit has been under an attack from two directions (the other one in the flank) from 11 pm onward. Before that it had been in contact with 1/GREN (in varying degree) from the dawn. Around 9.30 am they were getting closer and closer.I have found that the best way to handle this situation is to detach an appropriate size force (Coy of infantry) to take care of the HQ, then re issue another order to the Bn HQ in command of the remaining units in the Bn, or the individual units themselves, in order to break contact and continue the advance.
If you do this once the HQ has been isolated, the rest of your force can continue with its mission with the minimum of delays.
If you do nothing and wait for the HQ to disband, the rest of the formation/Bn will sometimes get hung up on it unnecessarily, as the AI is not good at knowing when to press on or break contact with these weak stubborn units.
Economy of force is something that is left to the player for most player ordered attacks it seems, so don't have your whole Bn hanging around for one Coy to root out a stubborn HQ. Order the rest of your Bn to break contact even if you have to do it with individual orders then assign them another task.
If you do this once the HQ has been isolated, the rest of your force can continue with its mission with the minimum of delays.
If you do nothing and wait for the HQ to disband, the rest of the formation/Bn will sometimes get hung up on it unnecessarily, as the AI is not good at knowing when to press on or break contact with these weak stubborn units.
Economy of force is something that is left to the player for most player ordered attacks it seems, so don't have your whole Bn hanging around for one Coy to root out a stubborn HQ. Order the rest of your Bn to break contact even if you have to do it with individual orders then assign them another task.
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Good point Daz! I'm using this scenario as a tutorial of sorts, for trying to get a grasp on little details like the one you mention.
For this specific case however I feel that detaching most of the battalion from the assault and assigning it for other duties. Mainly I'm concerned about unit fatigue (I would probably need to reroute them a bit) and orders delay. Without going in too much detail of the situation - as that could take an own topic -, I really needed to clear the city center and fast. From the second picture you can see that there were enemies hanging behind the HQ. 2/GREN was dispatched to mainly deal with those units, which quite quickly either were defeated or forced to retreat.
Had I foreseen this possible outcome a little earlier, I most likely had conducted the assaults little differently. Its nice to see that the more you play the more you learn, I appreciate that aspect.
For this specific case however I feel that detaching most of the battalion from the assault and assigning it for other duties. Mainly I'm concerned about unit fatigue (I would probably need to reroute them a bit) and orders delay. Without going in too much detail of the situation - as that could take an own topic -, I really needed to clear the city center and fast. From the second picture you can see that there were enemies hanging behind the HQ. 2/GREN was dispatched to mainly deal with those units, which quite quickly either were defeated or forced to retreat.
Had I foreseen this possible outcome a little earlier, I most likely had conducted the assaults little differently. Its nice to see that the more you play the more you learn, I appreciate that aspect.
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