Potential CO2 Buyer - Help me take the leap (maybe)

[Ty Snouffer]

I've been eyeing CO2 for awhile now. I must've tried that St. Vith demo 3 times but give up after a few minutes. It just isn't clicking for me.

However, I am a huge Market Garden enthusiast and it is hard not to rethink getting Highway to the Reich given the Steam sale at $15.

How do I get my courage up to convince myself that the learning curve can be overcome? Or is it really all that hard and I am going to have to strap in for the long haul or just give up and go back to tabletop wargaming?

Cheers

 

[Nuno Inacio]

I've been eyeing CO2 for awhile now. I must've tried that St. Vith demo 3 times but give up after a few minutes. It just isn't clicking for me.

However, I am a huge Market Garden enthusiast and it is hard not to rethink getting Highway to the Reich given the Steam sale at $15.

How do I get my courage up to convince myself that the learning curve can be overcome? Or is it really all that hard and I am going to have to strap in for the long haul or just give up and go back to tabletop wargaming?

Cheers

I'm no CO2 expert, but would like to share my experience.

After reading and watching some reviews I decided to take advantage of the command pack sale a few years ago.

I also started with st vith, and at first it was extremely daunting.

After some googling I found the youtube tutorials by Panther Games for previous CO, and after watching those I got a pretty good idea of how to play.

I did not do a nearly as well prepared game, since I was playing from memory, but with the basic principles from those videos I was able to win at my second try.

I suggest you try watching those videos, and also read the brilliant st vith tutorial by Daz which you can find in this forum.

Those should give you a pretty good idea of how to play and what to expect from CO2.

 

[Davide Pessach]

There are a lot of non-official resources for this game around and the learning process is a joy in itself

 

[simovitch]

It's really not that hard to play this game. It's unfortunate that there isn't a traditional tutorial, but there is plenty of resources online. The most difficult aspect for me, even after all these years is to manage attaching and detaching to reduce administrative load on the higher HQ's. But if you play with no orders delay this is not a problem.

 

[rocketman]

Can't remember the name, but there is a Youtube series for "The Road to Bastogne" scenario, where he discusses the basics of the game in detail in the first episodes. He then describes his strategy in detail. Very helpful. Otherwise I would suggest playing the game but resist micromanaging. Give some orders to HQs and sit back and pay close attention to how they behave before and during combat. The game is really rewarding once you get the hang of it and you can take that from someone who is no expert. If Market Garden is your main interest it makes it a bit easier not to have to deal with elevation changes and LOS as much due to the flat landscape.

 

[J. van Limpt]

I've been eyeing CO2 for awhile now. I must've tried that St. Vith demo 3 times but give up after a few minutes. It just isn't clicking for me.

However, I am a huge Market Garden enthusiast and it is hard not to rethink getting Highway to the Reich given the Steam sale at $15.

How do I get my courage up to convince myself that the learning curve can be overcome? Or is it really all that hard and I am going to have to strap in for the long haul or just give up and go back to tabletop wargaming?

Cheers

It takes a while to appreciate the richness of this game, but it is really among the best. I'm a fan of the Combat Mission series and very critical towards what I play. It took me several weeks to get into CO2, but now I enjoy it a lot. In fact at this moment I'm playing Highway to the Reich. You have to stay sharp every minute and plan ahead. It's also fun to keep reading about MG at the same time (in my case It Never Snows in September by Robert J. Kershaw) and take the time, because this game deserves it. For me the moment when I knew this is going to stay on my pc was after playing Greyhound Dash, the scenario about the 116th Panzer in the Ardennes. It was (and still is) sheer magic. Take the dive and enjoy one of the best wargames around. Oh, and also important: read the manual really carefully and ask the guys here how to do things. It increases your skills and the enjoyment tremendously.

 

[Ty Snouffer]

Thanks fellas. I'm probably guilty of one of my hobby pet peeves where someone asks the community something along the lines of "should I buy xxx" when they have probably already made the decision to do so regardless of the response. They are just looking for an excuse.

The summer sale runs for a few more days so I am going to dive back into St. Vith and see how it sets in with a little more attention. Either way, I bet I get HttR.

Cheers

 

[rocketman]

The summer sale runs for a few more days so I am going to dive back into St. Vith and see how it sets in with a little more attention. Either way, I bet I get HttR.

Cheers

I bet you will

 

[rocketman]

It takes a while to appreciate the richness of this game, but it is really among the best. I'm a fan of the Combat Mission series and very critical towards what I play. It took me several weeks to get into CO2, but now I enjoy it a lot. In fact at this moment I'm playing Highway to the Reich. You have to stay sharp every minute and plan ahead. It's also fun to keep reading about MG at the same time (in my case It Never Snows in September by Robert J. Kershaw) and take the time, because this game deserves it. For me the moment when I knew this is going to stay on my pc was after playing Greyhound Dash, the scenario about the 116th Panzer in the Ardennes. It was (and still is) sheer magic. Take the dive and enjoy one of the best wargames around. Oh, and also important: read the manual really carefully and ask the guys here how to do things. It increases your skills and the enjoyment tremendously.

That's exactly how I started with CO2 - HttR and Kershaw's book
Perfect to learn history with a book and a game combined.
Seeing you're a CM player - have you played the German campaign in the Market Garden module, called "A Moment in Time"? I played it after reading the book as Kershaw describes the ad hoc Kampfgruppen in an interesting way.

 

[Davide Pessach]

I'm getting in love with this game very quickly, and the fact that there is no clear documentation is making the process even sweeter, learning my way to get better that is.
And exactly as VanLimpt I love reading books to go with the experience...and incredibly enough I have the same book on my wishlist (it never snows in september). I also advise you guys to take a look at the work of a very nice youtuber playing these kind of games and creating documentaries (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfZz8F37oSJ2rtcEJHM2kCg).

Making my way through Joe's bridge right now and looking forward to the entire MG campaign. I hope this game will go somewhere in the future as it really deserves some more attention.

 

[Ty Snouffer]

That is how I play my tabletop wargames like Where Eagles Dare, read the detailed history that goes along with the gameplay Glad to see that resonates with CO2 too.

 

[Bie]

You have to definitely look up things in the manual and in video's/online resources. Once you get the basics though things will start to click. Everythings is quite rational and as true to reality as possible. And I'm sure that your history of wargaming will take you from there.

Also Highway to the Reich is an excellent pack. I've played most of the historical scenarios in sequence and they are a blast to go through.

 

[Davide Pessach]

Yesterday I got a decisive victory on Joe's bridge as my first Highway to the Reich scenario. Super fun and thematic. Can't wait to start the second one in chronological order following along with history books.

Yet sometimes I wonder how hard would it really be to mod this way into better graphics. I mean better terrain tiles and better 'spacing' (the angles in the terrain textures are really awful). Nothing too fancy, just some google maps style graphics.

 

[Bie]

Ah yes Joe's Bridge is an excellent scenario to get the ball rolling. Short, compact and not that many units. Next up is Breakout from Joe's Bridge. As luck would have it, Hofstadter's Tortoise is starting a playthrough of the scenario:


Don't watch it if you don't want to get spoiled

 

[Davide Pessach]

Yes I saw the beginning and stopped exactly because I don't want it to be spoiled to me. Still I think the game shines with more units, the overall scope of commanding a corp or an army comes together only when you have so many battallions to organize, I guess...

 

[Ty Snouffer]

I did end up getting HttR. Am I correct in seeing that there isn't a true, full campaign, Valkenswaard to Arnhem scenario?

 

[Bie]

You are correct. The biggest one is "From the Muese to the Rhine", which spans from just south of Grave to well north of Arnhem. The battlefield is about 1200 km². I haven't tried it yet, but to me it already seems quite mind-boggling. I played the "All American over Nijmegen" and "Red Devils over Arnhem", which are respectively the Nijmegen and Arnhem parts of the operation and I can tell you that those scenarios on their own are already quite complex as it is.

It is definitely tempting to get into these huge scenarios. Yet I want to retain my sanity. Because I fear that playing a full Market Garden scenario will surely take that ;-)

 

[Ty Snouffer]

Heh, yeah, after I submitted that question I thought to myself "the full campagin seems out of scope of the role one would play in the game." Meaning, unless you can give commands a-la-General Taylor then best to stay at the Gen. Gavin or Urquhart level. And even that is a pretty big task!

 

[Bie]

If you want the whole Market Garden experience I suggest playing them in order of:

1. Joe's Bridge
2. Breakout from Joe's Bridge
3. Screaming Eagles over Eindhoven
4. All American over Nijmegen
5. Red Devils over Arnhem

This is basically chronological and this way you will get eased into the more complex and unit heavy scenarios at the end as well.

 

[jimcarravallah]

You are correct. The biggest one is "From the Muese to the Rhine", which spans from just south of Grave to well north of Arnhem. The battlefield is about 1200 km². I haven't tried it yet, but to me it already seems quite mind-boggling. I played the "All American over Nijmegen" and "Red Devils over Arnhem", which are respectively the Nijmegen and Arnhem parts of the operation and I can tell you that those scenarios on their own are already quite complex as it is.

It is definitely tempting to get into these huge scenarios. Yet I want to retain my sanity. Because I fear that playing a full Market Garden scenario will surely take that ;-)

Kind of makes one admire Montgomery for his ability to manipulate all the moving pieces, doesn't it?