Bridge Crossings, "Nobody Comes Back."

[nicholas diisabatino]

It has been a whole since I played this title and would like to get back to it but I am not quite understanding the bridge icons and whether a specific bridge viable for transport or not. In Nobody comes back scenario I would think they would have been ready for crossing as that was day one of Bulge and did the Allies actually successfully prime the bridges and blow them up? But playing the Krauts, the units cannot cross and I am having to assign an engineer unit to secure a crossing. Do bridge icons display the info on crossing status?

Thanks

 

[john connor]

If I recall correctly the crossings were down and the Axis had to build crossings in that sector, Nicholas - hence the set up for that scenario.

As far as how clear the ingame icons are the page below from the manual might help?



An 'empty crossing' is in fact just water, not crossable unless you build something over it. The icon is a placeholder to show where on the map crossings can actually be built.

Helpful?

Peter

 

[nicholas diisabatino]

primed means there is an explosive charge waiting to detonate under the bridge? Un-primed means what?

An empty crossing means what, there is a river there but no bridge? So what differentiates that path of land from any other patch of land along a river?

Also, what does a blown or damaged crossing [bridge] look like on the map?

Thank you!

 

[john connor]

As far as I know - someone correct me if I'm wrong....

There are crossings and bridges and ferries.

Bridges and ferries you know. But 'beneath' every bridge or ferry is a 'crossing'. Crossings are points on the map (selected by a scenario designer) where a bridge could be placed by you (or the AI). You cannot just build a bridge anywhere - only at crossings. (This is what differentiates that bit of land - the 'crossing point' - from others.) Empty crossings are those designated points with no bridge yet placed. See the icon in my post above.

If you right click on the actual bridge icon and select the info that pops up then it will tell you if the 'crossing' (meaning the bridge over the crossing) is primed or not, and how much it is primed. Obviously, you can only prime crossings that have bridges or ferries built on them (you prime the bridge, not the 'crossing' - after you blow the primed bridge the empty crossing point will remain).

Primed means there is an explosive charge, yes. Unprimed means there is no explosive charge - just a common or garden working bridge. If you have engineers you can get them to place a charge beneath it. Takes time though (see manual for how long, it varies with the size of bridge and other factors).

A blown bridge looks like the empty crossing point icon, iirc. It reverts to that. When a bridge blows you get a big red notification line in the message log and the entire game freezes for a couple of seconds whilst the program recalculates movement possibilities over the entire map (to take acount of the blown bridge). Just wait out the freeze and things will continue...Ditto when your engineers (or the AI opponent engineers) complete a bridge. This can be a bit like a cheat sometimes. In the scenario you mention, for example - Nobody Comes Back - if you play as Allies the whole game will freeze for a second or two when the AI Axis completes its bridges over the empty crossing points, alerting you to the fact that they are now ready to swarm across the water and come at you....

Peter

 

[nicholas diisabatino]

thanks for all the info. regarding this scenario , why are there axis units also west of the crossing at the scenario start, if the larger bodies of units still cannot cross and are to the east, and need to secure crossings?Certainly the axis to the west of the crossings units weren't para dropped?

 

[john connor]

You would need to look at the history to see what happened. I would trust the scenario designer - it's a hallmark of this game that a lot of research goes into producing historically accurate scenarios with as accurate as possible troop displacements. I would guess here the designer is trying to simulate what actually happens (and happened) if a force is trying to bridge a crossing - they would get some holding foot troops across the other side, to secure the far bank whilst construction took place. There are various methods of getting them across that don't rely on bridges, obviously. Swimming for example. But it's a holding measure until the remainder plus the motorised units can use the bridge the engineers build. The Axis built crossings at these points historically, and I guess they would have had to use these techniques to do that. In reality, I very much doubt the Our river is really completely uncrossable to infantry (as it is on this map), even in Winter flood. But putting across a small holding force by some slow, dangerous, costly method is different to planning an offensive to cross that way. That's not what happens, and not what happened historically. So the scenario designer is trying to recreate that fact for you. Those foot troops were put across before the scenario started, to pave the way.

 

[simovitch]

This one was mine from the original "BFTB", and is similar to "Assault on the Saur". In this scenario, the Germans you see at start and in reinforcements crossed in the early morning with assault boats, fording, and improvised bridges, but the bridging engineers had to get in and build some bridges for the motorized units. In this scenario, you have to do the same with your bridging units (you can filter units to find these) if you want your guns and armor support to help out in your advance. Also, you should always read the briefing before you start.

 

[john connor]

It's a great map, Richard.

 

[nicholas diisabatino]

This particular scenario seems rather slow going bc the main Axis forces are not able to cross the river. It is day 2 and they still have not crossed. I played both sides and that is what happens. Wow this river must have really slowed down the German advance. Did the German high command intend for such a lack of movement?

Edit:

Ahh, the axis just crossed right after I posted this the hordes are attacking!

Edit: Do two engineering units secure crossing faster than one? Or, as in this scenario when side has two engineering units (axis), should each unit take a diff crossing point to secure?

Thanks!

 

[nicholas diisabatino]

Alright I am behind the 8 ball in this scenario as the Axis. So according to the icons from John's post, on this scenario the crossing points have no infrastructure to begin with -- it is just water. I have been designating my engineering units to secure crossings but I think I should have ordered them to actually build bridges. IE, if the crossing icon looks like a baseball, with the stitching on both edges and empty in the middle as in this scenario, the engineering units need to start from scratch and build a bridge?

And historically would that equate to pontoons?

 

[simovitch]

The more engineers given a common construct order the faster the bridge is built. One of the engineer units has to have a bridge (icon). One way to do this is filter only engineer units.

The bridges at Roth and Gentingen were not completed until the evening of the 17th due to poor or non-existent equipment and inexperienced engineers. Some of the bridges were built from doors and lumber stripped from buildings in town. It's a fascinating little bit of history how the Germans built crossings here, the widest part of the Our. http://tothosewhoserved.org/usa/eto/usaeto08/chapter09.html

 

[simovitch]

depending on the slope of the banks at the ingress/egress points, pontoon bridges could carry vehicles just fine so anything other than a ford would be representative. I've played this scenario both ways - both engineers on one bridge or one at each. You probably want both bridges going eventually.

 

[simovitch]

Before you give any orders, read the briefing for your side. The designer will usually try to give the player some helpful tips to get him going.... It's the "Brf" tab at the bottom row of tabs.

 

[john connor]

If it's just the 'empty crossing' icon then, yes, you need to command them to build a bridge across (they can't 'secure' a bridge unless there's already a bridge there), and, as Simovitch said, you need to have an engineer unit with a 'bridge' in its E&S tab (at the very bottom, usually) to do this. Would definitely second Simovitch's advice about reading the briefing, and any history you can get hold of - Simovitch's link above, for example. One of the great things about this game is how it provokes you to go to the actual history (and actual tactics), I think.

 

[nicholas diisabatino]

I wonder historically in WW2 wich major country had the highest trained engineers. The fact that the German high command was held up by lowly trained engineers is surprising to learn given how critical the campaign was. Skorenzy had his units trained well for their mission, but not the engineers? I wonder if the US Corp of engineers was the best in the business.

 

[jimcarravallah]

I wonder historically in WW2 wich major country had the highest trained engineers. The fact that the German high command was held up by lowly trained engineers is surprising to learn given how critical the campaign was. Skorenzy had his units trained well for their mission, but not the engineers? I wonder if the US Corp of engineers was the best in the business.

It was probably neck and neck with the British.

Depends on whether you're focusing on in field activities or design of equipment to facilitate those activities.

The US had the manpower bulk to train and carry out the missions in the field, but the British were pretty inventive in identifying needs and designing combat vehicle solutions that facilitated those engineering activities.

 

[nicholas diisabatino]

Well the Germans had that horrible problem with attrition. By late 1944 how many millions of men over the age of 21 years had been killed? What were they left with in terms of trained veterans in the engineering brigades?

 

[john connor]

It's a great link, Richard. Thanks.