East Front Guess

Kurt

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Ah, the Battle of Brody. The Germans referred to it as "Tank battle of Dubno-Luzk-Brody" or "Battle of Dubno-Luzk-Riwne".
According to Christer Bergström, in "Barbarossa – The Air Battle: July–December 1941" (2007), the German Luftwaffe destroyed 201 Russian tanks during the battle.
According to some sources, the 8th Mech Corp alone had lost 800 tanks during the battle, but D.I. Ryabyshev, commander of the 8th Mech Corps, stated that the Corps had ~932 tanks (authorized strength 1,031) , where only 169 of them were modern medium and heavy tanks, and 763 of them obsolete light and medium tanks, around the onset of the battle, and 207 tanks left on 1st of July. That would be a tank loss of around 78%.

http://english.battlefield.ru/battles/22-1941/84-8th-mechanized-corps1941.html (the original was translated around 2002 ?)

Some sources insist that the 8th and 15th Mech Corps lost 85–90 %, the 9th and the 19th Mech Corps 70 % (each), and the 4th Mech Corps 60 % of their tanks.

Looking at Ryabyshev's numbers, the 8th Mech Corps had lost 78% of its tanks, not 90%. It seems like Author Victor Kamenir stuck to Ryabshev's number in his book "Bloody Triangle: The Defeat of Soviet Armor in the Ukraine, June 1941" from 2009, he mentioned 207 remaining tanks.

Some sources indicate that the number of remaining tanks amounted to 66 in the 9th Corps (supposedly 70% lost), 35 in the 19th Corps (supp. 70% lost) and 33 in the 22nd Corps (90%), after the battle.
These conflicting numbers (some authors - like Glantz here and there- have a tendency to deduct the number of destroyed tanks either from the required/authorized strength, or from the number of total tanks possed by a given unit, instead of trying to research accurate actual strength numbers that considers the number of non-operational tanks - means the ones under major repairs), along with the contradicting percentages (like with the Ryabyshev-example above) provided by some authors and the censorship of the Glawit (or Glavit, the head office for literature affairs and publishing, the supreme censorship and publications board) make it hard to dig out accurate numbers.

Except for Samisdat and Tamisdat (self-published literature, articles and documents in Warsaw Pact countries which used to be spread via various channels, but also declared to be illegal by the government institutions) sources, all Russian sources published before 1987 - the year when the censorship board in Russia had lost its jurisdiction - have to be taken with a pinch of salt, as troop and tank losses were often downplayed or manipulated.
Not sure how the Putin administration is handling military documents, some journalists indicate that there's a tendency to cover up (extremely) high losses (suffered by Russian forces during WWII) again.

Whatsoever, that's an interesting battle, where Popel's group managed to get in the rear of the 11th Panzer Division at Dubno, effectively cutting off the division's supply lines (completely). Most Russian units (especially the 8th Mech Corps) suffered of various miscommunications, failing radios and contradicting orders, even up to the point where the briefcase with written orders for Ryabyshev had burned during the crash landing of an aerial messenger, and where the pilot could then only state that the documents were orders, but that he did not know the content. With this chaotic setting, the Russians were unable to exploit the several German weak spots and their imprudence during the onslaught, except for Popel's bold move. But Popel did not get any response from higher echelons when asking for reinforcements and resupplies to bolster the bridgehead.

For a realistic setting, the bad communication (which could be emulated with additional order delays, but also with an implementation of radio failures and insufficient radio ranges - question is whether the Russians mistrusted radio coms in front of the enemy, or if their lack of long range radios appeared to be the more vital factor) should be rendered in an EF installment.
Excellent research Gunnar ( as always ) , it's a shame you don't create scenario's yourself , I guess it's simply about availability of spare time . It does take a considerable amount of time to create a scenario from scratch .
 

ghibli

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Lol, yeah, they are rigging this thread right now.

Actually, there even was a procedure where you could request a declassification of the particular folder you're interested in. As far as I've heard, the response was mostly positive (meaning folder was declassified). But, being a foreigner, I didn't want to actively engage myself with Russian bureaucracy (declassification would take some months, before the board reviews your application - at least that's how I was told), moreover - as already mentioned - I usually was able to find workarounds to get the data I needed.

Regarding the reason why some folders are still classified - they are different, and quite often have nothing to do about about the nature of the data (losses etc). For example, all the topographical maps of scale more than 1:100 000 are still classified in Russia. So if, say, the 400-pages folder happened to contain one (!) sheet of map dated 1942 (!) of 1:50 000 or 1:25 000 scale the complete (!) folder will be classified. Don't ask me why, that's how it works.
I was told this kind of stupid classifications are declassified by the board with ease (well, just wait some months), but, again, I've never actually needed that.

But some folders are really classified because of the data itself (normally, these are all data about accidents, prisoners' interrogations, court martials etc) or the "level" of data (like General Staff level, Front level and that kind of high-ranked things) and I'd guess you need to be a Russian citizen and possess some kind importance/trust in Russia to get these declassified. Just guessing, though.

In this book (from the 80s) "Inside the Soviet Army" by Viktor Suvorov the author, a soviet officer who defected, made some statements about the question of classified documents with maps (in chapter "Why does a soldier need to read a map?" p. 274). It is a nice reading, even though sometimes it should be taken with a grain of salt..
 

GoodGuy

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Excellent research Gunnar ( as always ) , it's a shame you don't create scenario's yourself , I guess it's simply about availability of spare time . It does take a considerable amount of time to create a scenario from scratch .

Yes. If I could place some interns to work the SE and the MM for me and implement my ideas, there'd be a good number of scenarios. :p
 

GoodGuy

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In this book (from the 80s) "Inside the Soviet Army" by Viktor Suvorov the author, a soviet officer who defected, made some statements about the question of classified documents with maps (in chapter "Why does a soldier need to read a map?" p. 274). It is a nice reading, even though sometimes it should be taken with a grain of salt..

So what's the bottom line of these statements?
 

ghibli

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So what's the bottom line of these statements?

In the origin they were kept secret to avoid being stolen by the enemy, which could have used them to plan military operations and direct artillery fire. During the cold war, however, maps were kept secret because, according to the author, it would have been incredibly difficult to escape the USSR without them (for civilians and military personnel attempting desertion; for the latter there was death penalty). The existence of the buffer zone in Eastern Europe is claimed to have also this purpose, to block people fleeing from the regime.
 

ioncore

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I could add here, that the reason why maps of 1:50 000 and higher scales (1:25 000 etc) are still considered secret in Russia, is that all the military and industrial installations are only drawn starting at these scales. So if you have 1:100 000 map scale (and smaller), you'll just get a swamp and meadows, but once you grab an 1:50 000, then there is somehow a huge plant on that very same spot, lol.
 

Miquel Ramirez

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Just wanted to share with you guys some stuff from the shelf of mine. You can try to guess what East Front battle is it.

133898_original.jpg


134209_original.jpg


The interesting thing about this map is that it is not drawn in map editor at all, but rather uses our new GIS import feature which is being developed for quite a time and which I believe I've briefly mentioned before (and which hopefully will be released to the public at some point).
This is how the input data for the map looks like in my favourite GIS editor:

134469_original.jpg

Great to see the integration between CO and QGIS working, Pavel... and it brings me to tears to see you modelling 1941 and going back to your old TOAW days stomping grounds :)

All the best,

Miquel.
 

ioncore

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and it brings me to tears to see you modelling 1941 and going back to your old TOAW days stomping grounds
Can't teach an old dog new tricks, lol. Anyway you're absolutely right, Summer 1941 is kind of recurring theme to me.
And, by the way (adevertisement mode on). About a year ago I've even started some pretty serious archival research project, aimed at:
- identifying names of all Soviet South-Western Front regiment-level commanders (ground forces only, incl. all artillery, rifle, tank, engineer etc regiments) by 22.06.41;
- identifying their biography and fate;
- finding their photos.
You might be surprised, but over ~80 years this kind of data was never researched or published on a systematic level (you might find info on some regimental commanders, but never on all, and only occasionally you find some photos). So my work is based mostly on archival research (using pre-war orders, war-time combat documents etc to find out names) and then I look for personal cases in archives to find bios and photos. And even tho I'm able to identify like 80-90% of commanders in total (and find out like 90% of photos and bios for them), there're still gaps.
I know it's pretty narrow and focused research, but, anyway, if you'll ever need this kind of info for any of your wargame activities, you know where to look for :) I publish them in my blog on bi-weekly basis (one Rifle Corps or Mechanized Corps or one Army-level support at the time). Here's a link to the latest datasheet (6th Rifle Corps).
(Advertisement mode off)
 

Kurt

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Can't teach an old dog new tricks, lol. Anyway you're absolutely right, Summer 1941 is kind of recurring theme to me.
And, by the way (adevertisement mode on). About a year ago I've even started some pretty serious archival research project, aimed at:
- identifying names of all Soviet South-Western Front regiment-level commanders (ground forces only, incl. all artillery, rifle, tank, engineer etc regiments) by 22.06.41;
- identifying their biography and fate;
- finding their photos.
You might be surprised, but over ~80 years this kind of data was never researched or published on a systematic level (you might find info on some regimental commanders, but never on all, and only occasionally you find some photos). So my work is based mostly on archival research (using pre-war orders, war-time combat documents etc to find out names) and then I look for personal cases in archives to find bios and photos. And even tho I'm able to identify like 80-90% of commanders in total (and find out like 90% of photos and bios for them), there're still gaps.
I know it's pretty narrow and focused research, but, anyway, if you'll ever need this kind of info for any of your wargame activities, you know where to look for :) I publish them in my blog on bi-weekly basis (one Rifle Corps or Mechanized Corps or one Army-level support at the time). Here's a link to the latest datasheet (6th Rifle Corps).
(Advertisement mode off)
Wow ! You really should release a book , I would buy it !
 

ioncore

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Well, I've never thought about it, but may be it's a viable option. Of course, an English version and with an extra stuff - like may be maps showing unit location by 22.06.41, also some debriefing on first days of war and then eventual unit's fate. Thanks for the idea!
 

Kurt

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Screenshot 2018-05-10 21.22.35.png There are books on German & Allied commanders , lists of their medals & awards . I have a book on SS divisional and above commanders , it cost £50 but is well worth it . Don't know of any Soviet equivalents .
found one !
 
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