FIXED PENDING TESTING 5.0.14 - Supply issues

[john connor]

See the pic. This is my little Manhay test scenario. I put it together to give clear conditions for the AI to put together concentrated attacks, and it looks like that's happening! Excellent and promising.

But, I don't know what's going on with supply for the Allied units. They're nearly all 100% interdicted. No Axis units near enough to do that, I would have thought. The single Allied SEP is right with all the units there.

 

[Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor]

I think you will find that if you turn on the APerFP influence map you will see the Germans have influence over the entire area - ie they can shoot the *%&!#* out of anything moving there and that is probably why you are having problems. Which is why you don't locate SEPs near enemy forces. Having said that why don't you see if any supplies get through at night time.

 

[john connor]

Yeah, but this is a VERY old and long discussion, Dave, that you have tweaked many times and had certainly - as far as I could see - FIXED for CO1 - namely the problem of supply being interdicted by the 'mere' weight of enemy firepower from beyond the FLOT. A few of us went on and on about it several years ago, especially in the context of pockets of troops with a supply source within the pocket (whether a SEP or a fully-loaded base) that just could not get any supply at all because of the characteristics you are describing above. You fixed it and now it's back, is my point. In imaginary terms the idea was that nobody could move without being shot at, but it was happening, you seemed to agree (because you FIXED it) far too much and didn't factor in the idea that manpacks would be used to steadily creep forward with supply sourced from within the pocket itself, if available. If you don't allow that kind of situation (pockets that CAN effectively get supply from within the pocket) then the game is crippled in terms of depicting realistically historical situations where just that did happen (supply does reach front line troops within a pocket, brought forward whichever way possible from stocks WITHIN the pocket) for many days (Arnhem, for example, to name but one...). In my test scenario above the group the Axis face is strong (with plenty of armour), in fortified positions and has both abundant bases and a SEP within the 'pocket'. Yet the Axis forces are interdicting supply 100% from 2km away (and there's no arty at all in this scenario, so it's just direct fire). That doesn't work, Dave, and all those Arnhem scenarios in which - following your fixes - supply was getting through in CO1 (when there was supply WITHIN the pocket), will now be in difficulty again if it's working as in my example above. What I mean is - this is a NEW problem. It was FIXED and tweaked so it worked good, but now it's back.

And I have already (2 weeks ago, in connection with the AI freezing in this scenario) sent you both the scenario and saves in which this supply problem occurred.

Peter

PS: Great to see a 10 unit AI attack going in though! Whatever you did to get that to work - thumbs up!! I posted that good news also in the Beda Fomm scenario AAR in the AAR thread where I had originally raised this issue with this scenario.

 

[Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor]

Peter, that may well be but I don't believe I have made any changes to the resupply code for CO2 (but then again my poor brain is pretty tired at the moment). I'll take a look. But I want to say this that just because you have a bunch of bodies deployed in a line doesn't prevent bullets from ripping past them. To presume that just because you have a unit there supply trucks can drive unimpeded right up to that unit is ridiculous. If this was in urban, well maybe but not out in the open and many of those units look like they are deployed out of the town they are huddled around.

As I said I will look into it.

 

[john connor]

Thanks. Trucks, no. They should get less supply and it should be abstracted in a way that represents it being carried by men, not trucks. But it was working like that before - that's what I mean. At least, I think it was. We stopped raising the issue, anyway. It was tweaked so it worked well. So maybe something else you've changed accidentally altered something. Not a priority anyway and it would be better - you're right - if I got you more realistic examples from a less exposed situation. All those men are sitting out in the open, yes (in fortified positions, though that won't help the supply donkeys creeping between the positions, I agree.)

Thanks.

Peter

 

[Daz]

I agree with Peter here Dave.
If the Base is within 500m of the men, which it is, then the supplies should be collected by the units its being delivered too.
That's what the blue line at the end of the supply lines means is it not?

That was introduced to simulate a reasonable distance that men could infiltrate supplies through from the supply drop of point at the Coy HQ to the front line Platoons.
So in this instance the line Coys or the base if its under fire should be taking losses directly not to the Bases supply columns.

I have had a similar experience in a more realistic situation in St Vith where the Base was in the middle of town, but supply was being interdicted to units within 500m of the Base.

I may be wrong, but I thought that all units within 500m of a base were automatically in supply?
If the supply Base itself comes under direct fire and takes losses, then that's a different matter.

With the amount of men Peter has crammed into this test, packed in so tight they could damn well throw the supplies from one trench to the next in a long chain

 

[Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor]

I agree with Peter here Dave.
With the amount of men Peter has crammed into this test, packed in so tight they could damn well throw the supplies from one trench to the next in a long chain

So why don't they then?

OK I'll look into it, hopefully next week.

 

[Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor]

I've had a look at this and I must admit that it's a very tricky issue. I am loathe to opt for an option that would just simply say if you are within 500m then you can automatically draw from the Base regardless of enemy firepower influence. In RL what would happen is that the enemy tanks would still plaster any movement during the day and the defenders would thus wait until dark before they manhandled the supplies. So perhaps the best approach is to work out a suitable test condition that determines whether or not the route is hostile and if visibility is good then reschedule the resupply run for after dark.

What do you think of that approach?

 

[Kurt]

That seems a good compromise to me

 

[john connor]

If supply is suspended now, Dave, how long before it resumes? I thought it was 48 hours. There should definitely be attempts after dark regardless of whether it's suspended, I think.

Even so, this issue is a real killer for me. I find it cripples game play in quite a few scenarios. Am I alone in finding it so terrible, I wonder?If so, then just discount me and let everyone else get on with it and enjoy the game.

But for me, in the testing I've done, and even just playing normal Manhay, what I see is a return to a situation you had definitely tweaked in the past so that it worked great. I can only repeat that, for me, left as it is (and I'm talking about daylight hours) then (a) whenever there is a pocket, even with supply within it (a base or base and SEP) then the weight of enemy firepower needed to totally interdict supply even over short distances from base to flot is far too light (and this aspect ruins gameplay in 'pocket' scenarios such as the Arnhem scenarios), and (b) the weight of enemy firepower needed to achieve this interdiction by mere presence at the other side of the flot - whether or not were dealing with a pocket - is also far too light.

In the test scenario I put together (and wrote about in the Beda Fomm AAR) the forces were relatively even in strength yet the AI was able to interdict supply totally by just bringing a small portion of its strength within range of a well-supplied pocket that consisted of all my strength. And this wasn't happening in the other direction - ie; the AI was not getting interdicted. This doesn't work. You can't have a few tanks approaching 2 Bns of mixed armour and infantry and managing to totally interdict their supply. It should happen the other way around!

So I would say that you should - if only for gameplay purposes - consider implementing the rule Daz suggested, by day too. 500m from a base and you get supply. In fact I would like it to be 1 km. It doesn't have to be full supply, just some! And your example isn't accurate, surely, Dave? We're not talking about trucks driving through the lines and presenting easy targets - we're talking about the need for SOME supplies to get through when you have men running out of ammo 500 metres from a fully stocked base, regardless of whether the enemy has los over the routes covering that 500m. We're talking about modelling the effects of men desperately creeping forward under covering fire, using whatever folds of the land are available, with ammo in packs on their back or slung over their shoulders - by all accounts THAT is what happens in RL, no? In the game at the moment you can set up the scenario so there's no indirect fire (as in my test scenario) and the pocket is in good cover (I've seen it happen in urban areas, for example) and the supply STILL won't get through. I really think you need to change that because this is NEW. This wasn't happening a year ago, so something that has been changed has affected it. All I'm asking for is some means to get it back to where we were. It was working well.

I think people should try playing a big Arnhem scenario - or any scenario involving something like a pocket - to see how this presently works. Because it doesn't allow there to be a roughly historical outcome at present.

Just my tuppence worth....

 

[Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor]

I'll look at this again tomorrow.

 

[Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor]

Peter,

I've made some changes. I would like to test them. Can you provide me with a save from that first screenshot above?

 

[Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor]

REMINDER FOR DAVE.

One thing I have noticed is that when it comes time to process the SupplyTransportEvent the original location of the unit requesting the supplies may have changed significantly. I thought I had code to handle those cases but can't seem to locate it right now. So this is just a reminder to me to follow up on this.

 

[Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor]

OK I am doing a new build now and this will, alas , need to be tested before we can say this issue is addressed. So we won't be going final just yet.

FIXED PENDING TESTING

 

[john connor]

I have just sent you the scenario and saves, Dave. Thanks. Hope you can fix this.

Peter

 

[Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor]

Got 'em thanks

 

[Daz]

One of the reasons that there needs to be a 500m automatically in supply zone around the base is for when we have the situation that was in my testing a few years ago, when all the transport for the base had been destroyed, but the base itself still had numerous supplies stockpiled.
If you remember, I had numerous Para units all around, and on top of the base, that had completely ran out of basics and had become paralyzed, even though there were tons of supplies right next to them, with no enemy unit in sight.

A reason why I don't see that it is unreasonable to allow it, is a lot of the base footprints are close to 500m diameter, so its perfectly reasonable, if you have a base with a unit next to it, that their combined footprints would be overlapping even though the centre of the counters may be 500m away. In other words they are partly deployed inside the base stockpile area.

Another reason is bases are normally located inside cover, Urban areas, forests, where its perfectly reasonable to assume that small quantities of supplies can be man handled unto 500m, even under enemy fire.

The blue line was put into the supply code, I thought, to indicate the distance that the unit receiving the supplies was capable of collecting its own supply from a local collection point. So I see no reason why if the unit is within 500m of a base, that the bases organic transport should be taking damage trying to supply them.

Chances are that if the base is within 500m of a unit that is taking fire, and the base is not in cover, the base will very shortly be taking fire directly anyway, so no need to attrite the supply convoys as the base will soon be taking casualties anyway.
If it is in cover and not taking casualties then there should be no problem at all in a unit close by collecting its supplies anyway.

Its great the way you listen and fix things like this Dave, when presented with a good argument, even when it sometimes clashes with your own opinion on the matter and results a lot more work for you.
Well done mate

 

[john connor]

So, when I test further and run that little scenario again, carefully, Daz, watching all the engagements and checking all details etc, then what I see is that those first front line Axis (AI) units (17 Panthers followed by 17 PzIVs) have actually positioned themselves so that they are within LOS of ONLY the front line easternmost Allied units. And then they stop and, at range of about 600m decimate and wreck those front line units. Whilst doing this they are not in LOS of the units forming the bulk of my massive concentration of firepower there, due to small folds in the land and depressions which only really show up if you right-click to interrogate the terrain to get the exact altitude at certain points. And then I get supply interdicted messages from the front line units under attack, who are all roughly 500m from their bases. The firepower calculation which the engine is (I assume...I could be wrong...) using is NOT 17 Panthers versus ALL that allied firepower, but 17 Panthers versus the somewhat weaker units in LOS at the front of the allied grouping. Hence, you might think, the interdiction isn't so problematic? And, since Dave's tweaks, so far in testing (fingers crossed) I get much less interdiction messages from infantry units. I would think that in these circs it would be ok for armour (who can only be resupplied, perhaps, by vehicle) to be interdicted a bit more than infantry (who can be resupplied by sneaky, creeping manpacks). I still have issues with it all, which Dave is looking at, but I think it's getting better. That said, I don't believe he has actually implemented a 'within 500m of base you get supply' rule.

 

[Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor]

No I haven't made it automatic supply if within 500m. I understand the logic of your argument but I can also see some real issues with it if I just did that. Eg what if you have a unit 450m from the base but a bloody great major river intervenes. I don't see too many manpacks surviving the swim myself with 35 kilos of goodies on their back. Twenty years of writing AI code has taught me a few things and one of those is that you need to consider the exceptions to the rule. All cases need to be covered otherwise they will you on the bum later. So we would at the least need to check reachability, but the current 'quick' reachability test won't take a distance constraint. For that I need to generate a route. So we're still back to where we started. There is a 500m drop off rule which marches back 500m along the route. If this takes it back to the base it will create a two loc (is 200m route). What I have still to check is whether when it calcs the hostile status past that drop off point. If it does then I can cap that. So there's further tweaks possible.

But first I would like to fix the issue where the recipient moves. We need to handle those cases an ensure the supply route is redetermined when its arrival event fires. That will prevent a lot of losses occurring when the battle is fluid - eg when the defenders are falling back towards their base and the enemy is advancing towards it.