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FPF

Kurt

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I would like an option to allow friendly arty to fire on friendly units , even with the 'AVOID FRIENDLIES' box un-checked the AI will still override on the side of safety . A warning dialogue could pop up saying " ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO FIRE ON FRIENDLIES ?" so you have a chance to cancel. Defending units well dug-in or in good defensive terrain would sometimes call in arty on their position when being overrun by enemy , this is called 'FINAL PROTECTIVE FIRES' or FPF to those unfamiliar with the term .:pompous:
 

Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor

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Understood Bill. But actually FPF was usually the number one priority registered target when on defence. It was rarely ever on top of the unit. Rather it was located on where they thought the most dangerous enemy FUP would be or on any piece of unoccupied terrain deemed to be vital ground - ie if the enemy holds this loc then it makes my position untenable - such as a dominating hill within effective small arms fire.
 

Kurt

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Oh right , well your the artillery man I am machine guns. :D
 

Daz

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Spot on Dave.

FPF is normaly about 200 to 400m depending on the caliber of the guns and pre adjusted onto avenues of expected enemy approach.
It has priority over any other calls for fire, that may be underway at the time of the request.

There were instances of fire being brought down onto friendly positions as a last resort, one of which was during the battle for the Twin villages at Rochearth and Krinkelt. This is rare and not normaly planned for.
 

Kurt

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Interesting suff , as a machine gunner our FPF was usually from a deffilade position firing enfilade onto assaulting enemy just in front of friendly forward trench/position. If I remember correctly the safety angle of fire from friendlies was 200 mills on exercise - 50 mills at war although we did use 50 mills during training to give the rifle platoons "proper training" at times. :eek:
 

GoodGuy

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Rather it was located on where they thought the most dangerous enemy FUP would be or on any piece of unoccupied terrain deemed to be vital ground ...

I beg to differ. German units and Allied units as well ordered defensive bombardments that would be considered close-range noawadays. I am not talking about a bombardment on top of a friendly unit ("Broken Arrow"-style), but about bombardments that were ordered locally as close as say 50-150 meters, especially right in front of villages or small towns, where the defending party (that had ordered the bombardment) could cover either behind houses and walls, or behind prepared barriers and sandbag positions. Especially when outnumbered, such bombardments proved to be the last (and effective) resort for the defenders (that goes for some US bombardments as well), and German artillery was often quite deadly/accurate on such missions.

The Germans surely bombarded FUPs, especially in woods (using their airbursts, which they totally mastered by 1944), but relatively close-range defensive bombardments were actually executed and appeared to be showstoppers for lots of attacking US and Russian units, on quite a few occasions (especially against the US in the Monschau region, but also in the general Huertgen forest / Westwall area).
In general, if artillery was available, German defenders ordered defensive bombardments on attacking enemy units that tried to storm their positions and - especially in Russia - the fire was then shifted (means the distance to friendly units was reduced), when enemy infantry kept coming (and getting closer).

That said, it should be up to the player to decide if he wants to endanger friendly troops or not. A close-range mission with a reasonable distance of say 100 meters between the friendly unit and the point of impact should be allowed, if that isn't the case already, IMHO.

A US soldier, who had received the Medal of Honor for his actions in an Italian village posthumously, was part of a US group that entered a stubbornly defended village, where deep bomb craters offered plenty of cover for the German defenders, and where MGs and mortars kept hitting the GIs. The soldier could actually see the smoke emitted by the mortar barrel, which was only some 50-80 meters away, IIRC. and which kept shelling the positions next to him and around him with almost vertical angle settings. As the mortar crew was protected inside the crater, but also defending the mortar position, and as the approaches were also covered by at least one MG 42, several mates of the soldier had been killed during the attempt to advance and take out either position, already, where the mortar crew had even dropped shells right in front of them, some 30 meters away. The soldier took out the mortar position and one or another position pretty much single-handedly eventually, allowing his mates to advance, but he got so badly wounded in the process, that he died of his wounds shortly after. High-angle close-range bombardments were pretty common, not just with (rather inaccurate) small calibre mortars, but also with high calibre mortars and with the German 75mm IGs and with the Russian Infantry guns. The German Flak 88's was an even more popular tool for close-range bombardments, as it delivered some decent accuracy (but less explosives, of course), which - if compared to heavy artillery - could reduce friendly-fire incidents.

Spot on Dave.

FPF is normaly about 200 to 400m depending on the caliber of the guns and pre adjusted onto avenues of expected enemy approach.
It has priority over any other calls for fire, that may be underway at the time of the request.

There were instances of fire being brought down onto friendly positions as a last resort, one of which was during the battle for the Twin villages at Rochearth and Krinkelt. This is rare and not normaly planned for.

Correct. There were a couple of incidents where bombardments were ordered on positions as close as 50-100 meters to the friendly defensive positions, though. There was also an incident where German armor had to slow down during a counterattack, because several tanks had been ordered to advance carelessly, even though the commander (who didn't join the attack) got to know that mines had been placed overnight by US engineers (Huertgenwald area, IIRC... Schmidt or Vossenack area) and where the US defenders then called a bombardment on the crippled armoured spearhead, which led the Germans to abort the attack. Distance between spearhead and defensive perimeter: 90-120 meters, IIRC.
 
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Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor

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Good points GoodGuy. But let me clarify something. FPFs were registered targets and likely nearby enemy FUPs were number one priority for FPFs. Where these were a long way away then the FPF would be located on the likely assault route between the FUP and their own loc. The reason for trying to locate it on the FUP is that it gave you the most time to hammer the opponent. I admit that in many cases the FUP may be in dead ground, such as behind a hill or buildings, but even then OPs that could observe those positions were often established. If these were not possible then they opted for the first visible location along the likely assault route - eg the crest of the hill. Once called in the caller would then drop the range so the fire could track the enemy's progress along their assault route and this often led to the fire being called in very close to the friendly positions. But it usually began from a registered position further away.
 

GoodGuy

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Where these were a long way away then the FPF would be located on the likely assault route between the FUP and their own loc.

That is correct. But a point on the slope in front of the crest of a hill, for example, so that attackers running downhill would have to cross the arty barrage, or a strip of open terrain with some distance to the edge of a forest (where the FUP was a point inside or behind the forest) - and not the edge of such forest, as that would give the attackers the opportunity to abort and get to cover (foxholes, trenches), offered more opportunities to increase casualties on the enemy side.

The reason for trying to locate it on the FUP is that it gave you the most time to hammer the opponent.
In practice, for the Germans, arty fire could not be observed - quite often, when it came to distant target locations, that goes especially for German attempts to bombard crossroads and supply routes in Allied sectors during the Ardennes offensive, where such bombardments were often less effective, or even completely off-target (with 0 effect), despite the use of halfway decent matrices, as corrective measures were not at hand.

In the Ardennes, unlike in France, distant/obstructed (means there were hills, woods or other terrain features/defensive measures that denied observed fire) FUPs were rarely bombarded, and Allied troops had often moved on/attacked already, once coordinates of FUPs had been finally figured. In the main, the Germans focused on enemies who could be observed and who offered worthy targets (in times where some non-Ardennes sectors on the Western Front were not allowed to spend more than 7-10 shells per day), as the supply situation deteriorated.

There were more reasons for the relatively low amount of unobserved fire on FUPs in the Ardennes, one reason was the lack of aerial recon (only short-range Fieseler Storch recon planes were sent here and there), another reason was that German forward observers on the ground could rarely penetrate or bypass defensive perimeters. In turn, US observers got cut off a few times (and even surrounded inside villages), or managed to penetrate German lines, which allowed them to give accurate directions for bombardments. One time a forming distant German tank group got shelled that way, if I am not mistaken.

In turn, in the Huertgen Forest, in the areas with those really large forests, a myriad of German bombardment missions targeted US troops deep inside the woods, also executed by single guns or small group of mortars and 75-mm infantry guns.
There's a famous picture of a 150-mm s.IG 33 (heavy infantry gun) hammering US units during one of their numerous attacks (see below).
The gun had been hauled deep inside the forest, and the crew set it up at the edge of a small clearing, perfectly concealed/protected from aerial bombardments. In front of the gun and next to the gun, you can see branches which were used to camo' up, if the gun didn't fire. If you check out the angle of the gun and if you check the angle/alignment of the trees, then it looks like the elevation is not set for max range (trajectory may be a tick too flat):

Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-J28303,_Hürtgenwald,_schweres_Infanteriegeschütz.jpg

Some bombardment units created their own clearings, there are also pictures showing mortars performing regular and ultra-high angle bombardments, all firing from positions deep inside the woods (clearings, or sometimes engineers just cut one or another tree and climbed up and cut the treetops of the surrounding trees, which was sufficient for high-angle mortar fire) .

As during the Huertgen-Forest campaign (5 months) the whereabouts of most of the US troops in the woods were halfway (or even well-)known, the Germans performed both, unobserved and observed fire. Since many positions and even some villages changed hands several times, quite some guns remained zero'ed.
The battles in the Huertgen Forest (coined "Hurtgen", from "to hurt") were particularly bloody, one reason was the heavy use of artillery airbursts in the wooded terrain, responsible for a lot of the US casualties in that campaign.

If these were not possible then they opted for the first visible location along the likely assault route - eg the crest of the hill. Once called in the caller would then drop the range so the fire could track the enemy's progress along their assault route and this often led to the fire being called in very close to the friendly positions. But it usually began from a registered position further away.

That's correct and that matches what I outlined here and in my previous post. Registered points were not establishd in front of a unit's toes, of course. They were established ahead of a friendly position, probably 200-400 meters (if the terrain was complex/dense), but could be shifted (reduced or increased) easily, once the fire was registered.
But in locations where approach routes were short, eg. a short strip of open terrain between a forest occupied by the Allies and a village occupied by the Germans, or like in the Huertgen Forest area - where one half of one or another Village was occupied by the Germans and the other half by US units), fire was ordered immediately and corrected by an OBS "on the fly". Risky, but necessary, quite often.

So, what's the minimum distance allowed in the game (with "avoid friendly fire" unchecked)?
 
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Daz

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So, what's the minimum distance allowed in the game (with "avoid friendly fire" unchecked)?
Did you mean with regard to the enemy AI?

You can of course bombard directly on top of your own position if you do it manually, by unchecking "avoid friendly fire".

I have observed the enemy AI bring artillery fire onto my units while in close contact with enemy units before so I know its close.
Probably as close as 100m.

I have also had the friendly AI bombard my own side in friendly fire incidents before when in close contact with the enemy.

Lately the AI controlled artillery for both sides has become very sleepy.
I know Dave has made adjustments to this to satisfy player feedback that sugested the Artillery was too powerful and ruining game play.

I should imagine he is getting a bit fed up being pushed from pillar to post on the subject, as different players seem to require different artillery effectiveness in order to make their game the right difficulty level for their play style.
It is of course such a powerful aspect of the game, just as it was historically, that small tweaks can make a big difference.
 

GoodGuy

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Did you mean with regard to the enemy AI?

You can of course bombard directly on top of your own position if you do it manually, by unchecking "avoid friendly fire".

Well even with FF-protection off, the game would either re-adjust the target marker or the bombardment unit would deny the bombardment, here and there. But I guess it was either an earlier version of CO2 or it was in the BFTB demo version, which I had reinstalled before switching to CO2, so I confused games here.
I just fired up CO2, and - of course - FF-protection will allow me to bombard my own unit. Might become a new method to punish friendly units. ;)
Btw, I wish I could zoom in 1 more notch. Drives me crazy.

Lately the AI controlled artillery for both sides has become very sleepy.
I know Dave has made adjustments to this to satisfy player feedback that sugested the Artillery was too powerful and ruining game play.
Well, you can still control arty manually, but this turns the game into a terrible click-fest. Also, I don't see why the player (basically acting as divisional/Corps or Army commander) should take command of every Bn's arty asset. It's cumbersome and not historical. And when I played the Taganrog scenario, the enemy AI arty still whooped my ass, while my arty units tended to be sleepy, so I wonder when and what kind of adjustments were done.
It kind of feels like mortar units would still be on regular on-call, but arty rather sleepy. Not sure if my observation is right, though.

I should imagine he is getting a bit fed up being pushed from pillar to post on the subject, as different players seem to require different artillery effectiveness in order to make their game the right difficulty level for their play style.
It is of course such a powerful aspect of the game, just as it was historically, that small tweaks can make a big difference.

This can be easily solved by adding an option in the scenario setup screen: Brutal arty, experienced arty, average arty, and rookie/sleepy/we have better things to do arty.

Btw, what happened to your "Unit Fatigue Recovery Speed Test" ?
 
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Daz

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Btw, what happened to your "Unit Fatigue Recovery Speed Test" ?
I sent Dave the saves for the tests before I went on holiday and suggested he take a look at the recovery rate to see if he thought it was ok.

The problem is there are a lot of variables to consider that make it a complicated business.

  • Level of fitness of the unit
  • Quantity of basics supply
  • Weather
  • Time of day
  • Proximity to enemy forces
I don't know if there are any more but it wouldn't surprise me.
All these variables make it quite hard to assess if it is simulated correctly.

I must say that I have never found fatigue it to be an unrealistic problem, if managed properly during the course of a scenario, so long as there is an adequate supply of basics coming in. That maybe a thing to watch out for in your games.

Unfortunately, I think there is still a problem with the resupply event not restarting after it has been suspended for a unit.
Anyone else noticed this?
 

Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor

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Re arty changes. Basically the code was modified to lessen the probability of committing assets the higher up the chain of command the request goes. This affects the Germans more so than the Allies to reflect the Allied superior capability for coordinated fires at these command levels. I am not going to be making any more changes till we review the whole arty support issue. I would like to implement a system that allows for arty to be placed in support but not under command for movement. Once we have that in place I think we can better handle the coord aspects of arty fire.
 

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I would like to implement a system that allows for arty to be placed in support but not under command for movement. Once we have that in place I think we can better handle the coord aspects of arty fire.

I am not sure how to interpret that statement. I read it as "not under command of the (enemy + friendly) AI". If that's the case, that would avoid situations where AI controlled arty units move into conquested or even enemy-controlled territory, indeed.

Doctrines.....
1) The creeping barrage remained to be the Russian artillery doctrine until the end of WW II (at least). Coordination was pretty poor (to say the least), coordination was non-existent in many places. Starting with the massive barrages at Stalingrad (prep barrages for the pincer movements), the Russians would collect large amounts of guns (900-1000?, 2k? in 1945?) shelling multiple locations, or even entire front sectors where a push was scheduled.

2) The British had started to use coordinated artillery strikes (from different batteries/regiments) in North Africa, using BBC time signals to synchronize clocks by the second, and refraining from using radios (thus maintaining the element of surprise for offensive operations).
These were ToT(Time on Target)-missions for major operations, where further adjustment/coordination was not undertaken until the radio silence was lifted, which was not before the operation was well underway, as far as I know.

3) The US forces had probably the best coordination going, ToT was widely taught in 1945, and - if executed - forward observation reports and coordinated artillery strikes were timely. Such level of ToT-coordination probably saw some first more widespread use during the Ardennes offensive, if I am not mistaken.

Sidenote: There's a funny story about 5 US artillery officers who got lost and who figured that they had gotten deep behind enemy lines at the very end of the war in East Germany, in particular in the Erzgebirge (Ore Mountains, near the town of Aue), on the way from an artillery training course back to their unit. Since the Germans in the area did not fire at them, they decided to do a bluff and rush into the nearby town of Aue, which was packed with German soldiers, and to act like a recon element that was scouting the area for their division. The acting German commander was obviously convinced that there were more US units to come, so he did not order defensive measures. The mayor of the town asked them to get out on the city hall's balcony, where he then handed over the town to the Allies officially, witnessed by hundreds of German soldiers and citizens. The officers then left the town and got back to their Division. Even though the Germans had handed over the city, Aue was never occupied by American units, as even in June 1945 the town was part of the gap (with a size of 2000 square kilometers) that was not occupied by any Allied force.
500,000 Germans were left to their own resources for 6 weeks, until the Russians moved in. The record in the official town history stated that the town's mayor had handed over the town to a spearheading US element. In May 2015, a group of historians found/published a letter written by Sergeant Emil Benarcik (1921 - 1993), a technical officer (he was one of those 5 artillery officers), that stated that the 5 soldiers had stumbled over the town when they got lost, basically, and that they weren't part of a spearhead/recon element, and that they had pulled this little coup de main in order not to get killed or captured by the Germans.

In a nearby region, where US units had halted, General Heidkämper tried to surrender to the Americans on the 8th of May 1945, but he was sent away, because the GIs were too busy celebrating the end of the war in Europe. :p
 
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Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor

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In military terms for arty command arrangements being "under command for movement" means the superior can order the arty unit to both move and fire. If the arty is just "in support" then the superior can only order the arty unit to fire. If the unit is "in direct support" then it can only respond to requests for fire from that superior. If "in general support" then it will be usually supporting multiple forces and each can request fire but it can't necessarily be guaranteed to provide it. It may already be firing in support of one of the other forces.
 
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