How can we deal with Skyscrapers in the Ln'L system?

[Rydo]

In the game scale, a hex, is 50 meters wide.

Usually in Ln'L there are houses of one or two floors. But what in case of a skyscraper?

It should be a few hexes big? Like 4 hexes?

And what about the floors? Since one could have fifty or even more.

How do i represent modern Seoul capital many Skyscrapers? Allow just level one to three or...?

The only thing sure is that helicopters can't fly above them, like an impassable wall. In fact using helis in a big city require some new type of skill because from my playtests it was very easy to get them down btw this was compensated by the fact that the helis could hide behind skyscrapers.

Any help is welcome.

 

[Charlie Heckman]

Buildings, roads and other infrastructure are depicted in Lock n Load (and virtually all tactical games) at an inaccurate scale relative to the true ground scale.

Skyscrapers have an aspect ratio in the range of 4-5. So the building in a 50m hex with a 50m x 50m square footprint would have a height of 200-250m or 60-75 stories. The footprint would only expand beyond one hex when you get above that height. Of course, this is a rule of thumb and footprint can vary greatly depending on the design.

How do you handle a 60 story building in the game? Good Luck with that one. 60 stories of counters and level markers sounds like a different game: Jenga!

 

[Rydo]

Buildings, roads and other infrastructure are depicted in Lock n Load (and virtually all tactical games) at an inaccurate scale relative to the true ground scale.

Skyscrapers have an aspect ratio in the range of 4-5. So the building in a 50m hex with a 50m x 50m square footprint would have a height of 200-250m or 60-75 stories. The footprint would only expand beyond one hex when you get above that height. Of course, this is a rule of thumb and footprint can vary greatly depending on the design.

How do you handle a 60 story building in the game? Good Luck with that one. 60 stories of counters and level markers sounds like a different game: Jenga!

I think i will allow only floor level 3 and state that from above its impraticable to fire effectively.

 

[Rydo]

Buildings, roads and other infrastructure are depicted in Lock n Load (and virtually all tactical games) at an inaccurate scale relative to the true ground scale

What do you mean?

Could you explain this better? I'm really interested.

 

[Charlie Heckman]

The graphical images used on tactical war gaming maps are not true to the stated ground scale. They are generally enlarged relative to the scale to make the maps look better.

For instance, a 2 lane road with curb side parking is typically 9 to 10m from curb to curb. Now look at the road widths on your LnLT maps. If they were true to scale, they would be narrower. You should be able to fit 5 roads side by side in the width of one 50m hex. I don’t think you could fit 3 roads wide in one hex.

This is a convention of tactical war games. From original Squad Leader maps on, infrastructure is drawn larger than true scale for a better looking map with more discernible details. Don’t get me wrong, I like the style.

 

[Rydo]

The graphical images used on tactical war gaming maps are not true to the stated ground scale. They are generally enlarged relative to the scale to make the maps look better.

For instance, a 2 lane road with curb side parking is typically 9 to 10m from curb to curb. Now look at the road widths on your LnLT maps. If they were true to scale, they would be narrower. You should be able to fit 5 roads side by side in the width of one 50m hex. I don’t think you could fit 3 roads wide in one hex.

This is a convention of tactical war games. From original Squad Leader maps on, infrastructure is drawn larger than true scale for a better looking map with more discernible details. Don’t get me wrong, I like the style.

So, if i got it right, basically they draw the map "zoomed" in, but in reality houses and roads and so on should be portrayed much more smaller?

Intetesting. What would happens if we get the right scale?

 

[Charlie Heckman]

I guess you would lose the ability to Op Fire on squads in the open as they were crossing streets?

It is a trade off games at this scale must make. It works just fine, but can create issues if you start to extrapolate from the maps. For instance let's say you wanted to include a modern Interstate highway with 3 lanes in each direction, paved shoulders, center emergency lane plus median concrete divider. That is a total of 6 lanes + shoulders. Look at any of your existing LnLT maps (or ASL or CoH or {whatever tactical game you like}... How many hexes wide would you guess that that super highway should be based on the map you are looking at?

If you are using true ground scale, the answer is less then 1 hex wide. That super highway would be approximately 31-34m in total width depending on the exact design or about 60-67% of the width of a hex. I'm guessing that a tactical game map designer would make that super highway two full hexes wide to fit with the scale depicted on the existing maps.

It's a trade off of visual appeal, reality and game play. I *think* Squad Leader created the convention? I can't think of a game prior to SL that took a similar approach to the maps? Obviously, that convention has been hugely successful!

- C

 

[Rydo]

I guess you would lose the ability to Op Fire on squads in the open as they were crossing streets?

It is a trade off games at this scale must make. It works just fine, but can create issues if you start to extrapolate from the maps. For instance let's say you wanted to include a modern Interstate highway with 3 lanes in each direction, paved shoulders, center emergency lane plus median concrete divider. That is a total of 6 lanes + shoulders. Look at any of your existing LnLT maps (or ASL or CoH or {whatever tactical game you like}... How many hexes wide would you guess that that super highway should be based on the map you are looking at?

If you are using true ground scale, the answer is less then 1 hex wide. That super highway would be approximately 31-34m in total width depending on the exact design or about 60-67% of the width of a hex. I'm guessing that a tactical game map designer would make that super highway two full hexes wide to fit with the scale depicted on the existing maps.

It's a trade off of visual appeal, reality and game play. I *think* Squad Leader created the convention? I can't think of a game prior to SL that took a similar approach to the maps? Obviously, that convention has been hugely successful!

- C

Cool! I'll slap you a like!

I think the first tactical game ( don't kill me if i'm wrong pls ) should be Grunt from wargame magazine?

It was about vietnam, uses squads and individual vehicles. It would be cool to get the hands on the rules to see how they were handling terrain stuff.

Too bad an old copy will cost me 60+ dollars with shippings.

Back on topic, probably if real terrain was portrayed realistically it would be too hard to determine the terrain of the hex? One can introduce the concept of multi-type terrain hex?

 

[Charlie Heckman]

I think the first tactical game ( don't kill me if i'm wrong pls ) should be Grunt from wargame magazine?

I meant that Squad Leader created this mapping convention for tactical games with the infrastructure scale on the map zoomed compared to ground scale. I did not mean that SL was the first tactical game. I'm not 100% confident that SL was the first for this type of mapping, I just can't think of anything that pre-dates it with this mapping style.

Back on topic, probably if real terrain was portrayed realistically it would be too hard to determine the terrain of the hex? One can introduce the concept of multi-type terrain hex?

Exactly. I also think it just looks better to our eye.

 

[Mike Nagel]

Rydo,

I'm coming into this late, but I suggest do limit the use of levels to three or less. If you're modeling a battle within Seoul, I think you can safely assume that it wouldn't occur until after there had been some sort of significant conventional or nuclear attack that would have leveled most of the skyscrapers you're worried about. The fighting would probably be in a lot of rubble, rather than in buildings higher than 50 feet tall.

 

[Rydo]

Rydo,

I'm coming into this late, but I suggest do limit the use of levels to three or less. If you're modeling a battle within Seoul, I think you can safely assume that it wouldn't occur until after there had been some sort of significant conventional or nuclear attack that would have leveled most of the skyscrapers you're worried about. The fighting would probably be in a lot of rubble, rather than in buildings higher than 50 feet tall.

Agree! I will probably limit the floors or assume the skyscrapers were so damaged only ground floor was safe to use, isn't that ok?

BTW thanks for the message!

 

[Ralph Ferrari]

Just include a John McClane Hero counter.

 

[Rydo]

Just include a John McClane Hero counter.

I have to!

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