New AA fire rule.

[Stefano G.]

Hello, i am very excited for the new version of WaW...i already own some of the previous series modules but i am very happy to have backed kickstarter project and i can not wait to have "Storming the Gap" on my table !!

There is, anyway, an aspect of new AA fire rule that does not convince me...
from 10.6.1:
However, a unit with black or orange FP dice may only attack Flying and Hovering Helicopters and CAS
counters up to its Effective (i.e. Printed) Range, with no Point Blank Range bonus or Long Range To-Hit penalty applying

Well, most of IFVs or MBTs have top turret mounted HMG as unique close range AA weapon and that makes me accept, for example, the German M-113 7.62mm cal. HMG AA fire within its 2 hexes range... But how to justify the long AA range of 11 hexes for Leo1 (or any other MBT) contribution? ... as all MBTs, Leo1 has only top turret HMG as AA weapon, it has no AP/HE main gun round dedicated to AA fire, and consequently its AA range should be 2 hexes (HMG range) . Imho, any not dedicated AA vehicle should have only 2 hexes range (simulating the usage of the only available AA HMG weapon); it is hard for me to accept a longer range; so the question is:
which kind of 105/120mm round is supposed to be used by MBTs main gun against air target to justify the usage of their AP range?

...

Maybe you could consider 120mm MPAT type round againt choppers, but it is not used by all MBTs or other units of WaW85 and not in that years, to let all of them use AP range for their AA fire( MPAT was introduced in 1993 for M-1 Abram to engage and defeat enemy helicopters). The best solution, if you do not want to keep old version AA rule and you, correctly, want to consider the vehicles or infantry HMGs close AA fire , is to limit to 2 hexes the AA range of ALL NOT specific AA UNITS (those with no blue FP)...imho, of course.

What do you think about?

 

[Keith Tracton]

Hello, i am very excited for the new version of WaW...i already own some of the previous series modules but i am very happy to have backed kickstarter project and i can not wait to have "Storming the Gap" on my table !!

There is, anyway, an aspect of new AA fire rule that does not convince me...
from 10.6.1:
However, a unit with black or orange FP dice may only attack Flying and Hovering Helicopters and CAS
counters up to its Effective (i.e. Printed) Range, with no Point Blank Range bonus or Long Range To-Hit penalty applying

Well, most of IFVs or MBTs have top turret mounted HMG as unique close range AA weapon and that makes me accept, for example, the German M-113 7.62mm cal. HMG AA fire within its 2 hexes range... But how to justify the long AA range of 11 hexes for Leo1 (or any other MBT) contribution? ... as all MBTs, Leo1 has only top turret HMG as AA weapon, it has no AP/HE main gun round dedicated to AA fire, and consequently its AA range should be 2 hexes (HMG range) . Imho, any not dedicated AA vehicle should have only 2 hexes range (simulating the usage of the only available AA HMG weapon); it is hard for me to accept a longer range; so the question is:
which kind of 105/120mm round is supposed to be used by MBTs main gun against air target to justify the usage of their AP range?

...

Maybe you could consider 120mm MPAT type round againt choppers, but it is not used by all MBTs or other units of WaW85 and not in that years, to let all of them use AP range for their AA fire( MPAT was introduced in 1993 for M-1 Abram to engage and defeat enemy helicopters). The best solution, if you do not want to keep old version AA rule and you, correctly, want to consider the vehicles or infantry HMGs close AA fire , is to limit to 2 hexes the AA range of ALL NOT specific AA UNITS (those with no blue FP)...imho, of course.

What do you think about?

Another great question! And thank you for posing it. what I need to add to the equation is the other half which is the effectiveness of these weapons out to their printed range. All non anti-aircraft weapons are reduced by two dice and their to hit is automatically 6 when firing against close air support and helicopters. I'll grant you that one pip out of 6 is still 16% chance of an initial hit, but that's the compromise we make with d6 dice system. AND most targets get an armored roll which further reduces the percentage chance of a final hit. Also remember this is a platoon firing not an individual vehicle. That also factors in, increasing the volume of fire.
One thing they can't be factored in to a ground game of this scale, and remember this is not an air game, is the speed with which the close air support get to their target and the distance they cover to do that. they are in fact in a single hex for the attack and that's where we judge any aircraft fire from but it's a simulation of yhe planesp streaking across the battlefield, likely within range of more than one machine gun and or main gun. As far as the main guns go the stabilized guns can in fact Target something out of that range, it doesn't mean they'll hit but I have a buddy who was a tank company Commander back in 85 and some poor A10 jockey accidentally came over their exercise area. Every turret in the company with a stabilized the gun, tracked it as it went across the battlefield. Apparently that's what they were trained to do. but even back to the machine guns, the effectiveness is not just the literal range but throwing metal up in front of a fast-moving object. My understanding is that f-14 tomcat US naval carrier pilots in a head-on approach we're trained to spiral their 20 millimeter cannon rounds and create a wall of metal and an enemy would literally just fly through. You didn't have to hit him if you just had to put enough metal that he would hit something. same principle here. It's not so much that the range is a literal range of the main gun as the area range of the close air support possibly flying through and that machine-gun you speak up with a range of two putting metal up while the fast mover flies right through it. Could it be at 11 hex range? It's more a question of how close you are to the possible track of that close air support unit. It's pretty much an abstraction but it seems to work because we compromised by reducing the effectiveness of the weapons so much. what I suggest you do is try it. Certainly in playtesting we ran across this but it really seems to work. At least for us. You can be the ultimate judge for yourself. I hope this helps explain a bit how this came about. Thanks again for looking into this so deeply! I appreciate your thoughts!

 

[Stefano G.]

Thank you Keith for your reply
I did like very much old game and any change of its rule makes me a bit uncomfortable...but i suppose it is a matter of habit .