Order of Battle - Hermann Goering Division

[Tainster]

Hi,
I’m trying to track down an order of battle for the Hermann Goering Division at the time of the allied invasion of Italy at Gela. I have been able to find some very general information but nothing to the level of detail I ideally would wish to have. Can anyone help point me in the right direction.
Many thanks

 

[Grognerd]

Try the Nafziger Collection...

 

[Dordo]

Hi,
I’m trying to track down an order of battle for the Hermann Goering Division at the time of the allied invasion of Italy at Gela. I have been able to find some very general information but nothing to the level of detail I ideally would wish to have. Can anyone help point me in the right direction.
Many thanks

I think this maybe useful :
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=95089
Furthermore try http://niehorster.org/ for teoric order of battle of all nations of WWII

 

[Tainster]

I think this maybe useful :
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=95089
Furthermore try http://niehorster.org/ for teoric order of battle of all nations of WWII

Thanks Dordo. After may hours of Googling I've found a good amount of consistent information, including the axis history source you quoted. I didn't come across the neihorster site which was really helpful so, again, many thanks. I am really impressed with the amount of information available on the neihorster site and I've bookmarked it for future reference.

Can you help me to understand the organisational breakdown for Panzergrenadier-Regiment 1. The attached screen-shot shows the breakdown for the 1943 formation and I have been assuming that is indicates that Regiment 1 is comprised of 2 battalions (I & II) where Battalion I includes companies 1-4 and Battalion II includes companies 5-8. I am confused by 9, 10 & 11.

 

[Dordo]

Thanks Dordo. After may hours of Googling I've found a good amount of consistent information, including the axis history source you quoted. I didn't come across the neihorster site which was really helpful so, again, many thanks. I am really impressed with the amount of information available on the neihorster site and I've bookmarked it for future reference.

Can you help me to understand the organisational breakdown for Panzergrenadier-Regiment 1. The attached screen-shot shows the breakdown for the 1943 formation and I have been assuming that is indicates that Regiment 1 is comprised of 2 battalions (I & II) where Battalion I includes companies 1-4 and Battalion II includes companies 5-8. I am confused by 9, 10 & 11.

View attachment 8655

Often the last companies of a regiment were those for heavy and anti-tank weapons.
I have found often these attached to one of the battalions and furthermore you have to consider that the PzD Herman Goering was specially armed as an elite unit.
Finally in Sicily elements of the HG were merged with the 15th PzGr. in the Schmid and Schmaltz groups, therefore, the heavy weapons companies could also come from other divisions only to increase temporarly firepower.
In Sicily, the Panzergrenadier-Regiment Hermann Göring were at most only on two battalions, so they certainly had heavy weapons companies for reinforcement.
If you want to use my Tunisia_template module you will find examples of HG forces as I found described in my bibliography in the two years of studying to develop those battles.
After all, from Tunisia to Sicily there are a few months of difference and the theoretical staff were the same.

 

[Tainster]

Often the last companies of a regiment were those for heavy and anti-tank weapons.
I have found often these attached to one of the battalions and furthermore you have to consider that the PzD Herman Goering was specially armed as an elite unit.
Finally in Sicily elements of the HG were merged with the 15th PzGr. in the Schmid and Schmaltz groups, therefore, the heavy weapons companies could also come from other divisions only to increase temporarly firepower.
In Sicily, the Panzergrenadier-Regiment Hermann Göring were at most only on two battalions, so they certainly had heavy weapons companies for reinforcement.
If you want to use my Tunisia_template module you will find examples of HG forces as I found described in my bibliography in the two years of studying to develop those battles.
After all, from Tunisia to Sicily there are a few months of difference and the theoretical staff were the same.

I thought that I was doing quite well with my research, but it's obvious that there is still so much to find and resolve.
I'll have a look at your Tunisia template now.

 

[Grognerd]

Using the niehorster.org references when you study the Panzer division organizations you can glean from this the 3 companies might be 2 heavy weapons companies one per battalion and one HQ company for the Regimental command.
You source reference no matter how it's read is confusing. I have the German Army Handbook (similar org charts like niehorster.org) and Hitler's Legions which has the Hermann Goring organization but without enough detail to help you.

BTW when I stated Nafziger, I meant the niehorster site (old memory) sorry...

 

[Tainster]

Using the niehorster.org references when you study the Panzer division organizations you can glean from this the 3 companies might be 2 heavy weapons companies one per battalion and one HQ company for the Regimental command.
You source reference no matter how it's read is confusing. I have the German Army Handbook (similar org charts like niehorster.org) and Hitler's Legions which has the Hermann Goring organization but without enough detail to help you.

BTW when I stated Nafziger, I meant the niehorster site (old memory) sorry...

What is the German Army Handbook? Although it doesn't help with the HG organisation, it may be useful for future reference.

 

[Grognerd]

It's an old book of mine. Hitler's Legions is another good title for wargamers - It covers all divisions, Corps, Army's & Army Groups.

 

[jimcarravallah]

Hi,
I’m trying to track down an order of battle for the Hermann Goering Division at the time of the allied invasion of Italy at Gela. I have been able to find some very general information but nothing to the level of detail I ideally would wish to have. Can anyone help point me in the right direction.
Many thanks

This is the foundation information in Wikipedia for the major formations reporting to the division HQ.

• Headquarters
• Hermann Goering Panzer Regiment
• 1st Hermann Goering Panzergrenadier Regiment
• 2nd Hermann Goering Panzergrenadier Regiment
• 1st Hermann Goering Artillery Regiment
• 1st Hermann Goering Anti-Aircraft Regiment
• 1st Hermann Goering Panzer Reconnaissance Battalion
• 1st Hermann Goering Tank Destroyer Battalion
• 1st Hermann Goering Panzer Engineer Battalion
• 1st Hermann Goering Panzer Signal Battalion
• 1st Hermann Goering Divisional Support Group

From this, you can extrapolate the number of battalions per infantry or panzer regiment, and the number of companies per battalion from the standard German OOB for WWII for the year you're replicating the combat.

http://niehorster.org/011_germany/__ge_index.htm

You may not get specific names for the formations (primarily artillery subordinate units), the organization and number of combat units should match from one division type to the (in this case, a Paratroop Panzer Division).

If you're looking for specific designations, then you'll have to look for unit histories at the Regimental level for the Herman Goering Division.

 

[Grognerd]

One last thing and I'll quit bugging you. If you want to spend some money - Both Amazon and the Squadron Shop have books on the HG division and the HG Corps.

 

[Tainster]

One last thing and I'll quit bugging you. If you want to spend some money - Both Amazon and the Squadron Shop have books on the HG division and the HG Corps.

Can you give me links to both books please.

 

[Tainster]

One last thing and I'll quit bugging you. If you want to spend some money - Both Amazon and the Squadron Shop have books on the HG division and the HG Corps.

Can you send me some links please.

 

[Grognerd]

Here you go
https://www.squadron.com/Books-and-magazines-for-modeling-and-military-history-s/3455.htm

 

[Tainster]

Here you go
https://www.squadron.com/Books-and-magazines-for-modeling-and-military-history-s/3455.htm

Got it! Thanks very much.

 

[GoodGuy]

Thanks Dordo. After may hours of Googling I've found a good amount of consistent information, including the axis history source you quoted. I didn't come across the neihorster site which was really helpful so, again, many thanks. I am really impressed with the amount of information available on the neihorster site and I've bookmarked it for future reference.

Can you help me to understand the organisational breakdown for Panzergrenadier-Regiment 1. The attached screen-shot shows the breakdown for the 1943 formation and I have been assuming that is indicates that Regiment 1 is comprised of 2 battalions (I & II) where Battalion I includes companies 1-4 and Battalion II includes companies 5-8. I am confused by 9, 10 & 11.

View attachment 8655

Panzergrenadier-Regiment 1 Hermann Göring (OOB 1943, possibly until around June '43):

HQ company (armored),

• signal platoon, Krad messenger platoon, medium AT platoon and engineer platoon

I. Bataillon (gp) (with HQ personnel)

• 1. - 3. Panzergrenadier-Kompanie (gp = gepanzert = armored, which means that these 3 Coys were equipped with halftracks and other armored vehicles)
• 4. schwere Panzergrenadier-Kompanie (gp) (heavy company, armored)
• 13. (IG) Kompanie (Sf) (Inf Gun Coy, self-propelled) (listed in 1942 and in September '43)
• 14. Panzerjäger-Kompanie (Sf) (AT Coy self-propelled) (listed in 1942 and in September '43)
  I've seen material that listed these 2 Coys (IG + AT, plus an additional Engineer Coy) as attached to/used by Bn I. , but these Coys must have been Coys no. 13 and 14. In 1942 an engineer Coy was listed as 11th company (see below), but I am not sure if this unit was kept, since the division received a fully fledged Engineer Bn and since the division was ordered to be reorganized as Panzer-Division in Oktober 1942 (which turned into a bloated unit, eventually).

II. Bataillon (mot = motorized -> trucks) HQ

• 5. - 7. Panzergrenadier-Kompanie (mot) (= all motorized -> trucks) and
• 8. schwere Panzergrenadier-Kompanie (mot) (heavy PG Coy, motorized)

II. Bataillon (mot) HQ (quite a few records describe this 3rd Bn as "II. Bataillon" with Coys 9-12, this is not a typo, afaik)

• 9. Panzergrenadier-Kompanie (mot)
• 10. Kradschützen-Kompanie (="Krad riflemen Coy", technically a Recon Coy from the early days) possibly until early 1943, not sure if this was still a Kradschützen Coy in July 1943 - the September '43 layout listed a PG coy (mot.).
• 11. possibly an Engineer Coy until spring or mid-1943, the September '43 layout listed a PG coy (mot.).
• 12. schwere Panzergrenadier-Kompanie (mot) (heavy PG Coy, motorized) in Sept. 1943, some sources locate the AT Coy mentioned above in this slot and indicate it as being based on the 1942 lineup, so it's possible that in late 1942 and maybe even in early 1943 the AT unit was still kept here or being shuffled around. Whatsoever, even if it was removed at some point, the unit was listed in September again. Coy type in slot no. 12 in July: I don't know.

I tend to think that Coys 12-14 had been deleted at one point (to bolster coys of the 1st two Bns, or to streamline the unit during or prior to the reconstruction process?), but they were definitely listed in September 1943 and in 1944.

After losing up to 11,000 men (who were sent to Tunisia and who had to surrender down there), the HG Division had to be rebuilt. Its CO and some of his staff were evacuated from North Africa in May '43 and ordered to take over the reconstruction of the unit, which was assembled/rebuilt on Sicily. If I am not mistaken, this process was finished in June '43. So, it's quite tricky to provide an exact lineup for July at Gela, without double-checking some KStN NARA film rolls. I don't have time to check my copies, atm.

 

[patxikuaundi]

hello, for info there is this site where I take my references to create scenarios!

Lexikon der Wehrmacht

 

[GoodGuy]

hello, for info there is this site where I take my references to create scenarios!

Lexikon der Wehrmacht

Quite some information there is based on Tessin's lists and books (he was archivist at the German Federal military archive), so we're talking about works published from ~1966 to 1974. Tessin's work is very useful and a very good starting point even for historians, but especially the partial opening of Russian archives and the resulting newer literature (published during the last say 25-35 years) led to a good number of corrections/new insights. Plus, if I am not mistaken, the federal archive did not have all the NARA material when Tessin started to compile his unit lists/write his books. The stuff listed in the Lexikon is not necessarily comprehensive, even if subpages carry a "complete listing" tag, and even though other sources (than Tessin's work) were used to compile the information in the Lexikon.
Their forums are actually way richer, as there are quite a few history buffs who actually looked at additional material in the federal German military archive and at NARA, means who did their own research, and as some of them sit on all the standard works published during the last 55 yrs.