Snippet's From the Meuse to the Rhine

Discussion in 'CO2 - After Action Reports' started by Daz, Oct 23, 2014.

  1. Daz

    Daz Member

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    This is exactly why I put that last image together, to encourage discussion on the practicalities of this attack, so I guess that worked :D

    I agree with both of you actually, not that my opinion matters however, as I have not been there like Erik has to see it first hand, or had he dubious pleasure of driving a Sherman tank across soft ground, during an attack lol.

    Maintaining that formation I have illustrated would be next to impossible I think.

    At the end of the day its just a game, at quite a large scale, and we have to swallow the inevitable discrepancies that the necessary abstraction presents us, and just make the most of the excellent game engine we have at our disposal.

    How I actually imagine it happening is, the Royal Dragoons have been tasked to clear that area of polder with an axis of advance north east, to support the main attack up the highway by fire, and clear the enemy out of the ditches, as well as giving them something else to bomb and fire at, than just the main attack up the highway.

    They would advance, bounding over watch style as best they could, moving along narrow causeways, into one field, to provide the next platoon/squadron overwatch while they try to find a way into the following one, or move around it to the next.
    They would probably need to backtrack numerous times, possibly even having to bypass one area by the road to get to the next.
    It would all be very higgledy piggledy, and very hard to control, and execute, hence the extremely slow going as abstracted by the game.
    The Sherman is not very heavy, for a tank, but like Erik said, I am dubious as to whether it has a low enough ground pressure to negotiate the Polder fields.
    I guess not all Polder fields are created equal, so it would depend on the situation on the day.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume a Sherman could go anywhere a modern tractor can, as some of the ones I have seen lately must weigh close to what a Sherman does?
    They seem to be getting bigger every year, and faster.
    I was driving behind one the other day, and it was easily keeping up with the traffic, and had four gigantic wheels, front and back!
     
  2. Erik Springelkamp

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    > Then once in the Polder there would surely have been variations in firmness across those enormous areas, and you would have to find, by trial and error, the firmer pathways? No?

    The fields itself are pretty homogeneous, as they are formed from floodplains in the river.

    Any micro-relief, like low river dunes, have already been used by the inhabitants, for building their homes and constructing their roads on low dikes.

    And yes, one can improvise a bridge or dam over a gully, but 100 metres beyond is a new gully, and another one and another one....

    I don't want to make a big issue out of this, by the way, but I just mention it, because it is the way it is... (and it is essential to Dutch military history through the ages, which has always had a particular character, ruled by waterways of every scale).
     
  3. Daz

    Daz Member

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  4. john connor

    john connor Member

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    Yep. And what a battlefield! Looking great for you, Daz. I'm amazed always that you manage to pull off - apparently with ease - things that I can only stumble through. I think this one is in the bag, no? At this point, playing it, I would begin to get a little sloppy and inattentive, because it looks safe. But I hope you manage to finish it for us.

    Erik - you think 'polder' should have a '0' motorised value, then? That would make this scenario quite different, Daz, no?
     
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Member

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    Out of curiosity, Daz, how are you planning of breaking this big mass of units in Arnhem? Looks to me like a big load of units sitting on top of another with no destinct weakness. Could you maybe provide a close up of Arnhem?

    Regards,

    A
     
  6. john connor

    john connor Member

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    Starve 'em. Actually, we know that doesn't usually work within the time limits available. Bombard them? good question, Iconoclast. What's the plan, Daz?
     
  7. Daz

    Daz Member

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    Well I was kind of hoping they would give up :rolleyes:

    By continuously pressing on all sides during the next four days, I hope to keep reducing the size of their pocket.
    As with all sieges, artillery is the key, not only for reducing the City to Rubble lol, but also to reduce morale, and cause casualties, with little risk to your own force.
    One of my goals when I play is to have as few casualties of my men as possible.
    Its kind of a personal benchmark to how well I have done, for when I repeat a play through of a scenario.
    The enemy will become ever more compressed, and over concentrated, making the artillery even more effective, as time goes on.

    To be honest I have no idea how it will end, as I have never conducted a siege before.
    I have considered continuing to push predominantly on the west side, to push them out of the city into the more open area of the rail yard, where they will be easier to kill.
    This however is incredibly hard to achieve, as the 1st Para Brigade is discovering.
    I think what will help a lot is if I seek out their artillery, around the City and neutralise it, which I have already started to do with 5th Dorset's of the 130th Inf Brigade on the right flank.
    There is a close up of Arnhem at this exact same time, a few post back "A".
     
    #47 Daz, Nov 10, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2014
  8. Erik Springelkamp

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    > Erik - you think 'polder' should have a '0' motorised value, then? That would make this scenario quite different, Daz, no?

    I think it would be realistic. Maybe add with the addition of some very slow dead end 'trails', or partitioning very small waterways.

    I remember the very good Victory board game Hell's Highway, where motorized units can only move on roads (in column mode) through polder terrain. That worked well, and made your XXX Corps infantry essential, and basically in short supply, let alone the problems of having everything arrive in the proper order to fight through alternating zones of polder and sandy highground. Which was exactly the major headache of XXX Corps.
     
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Member

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    That reminded me of a particular chapter in FM 3-90.

    Thanks Daz, thought that pic was from a little earlier.

    Regards,

    A
     
  10. Daz

    Daz Member

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    Erik
    I don't think zero movement of vehicles, over Polder will be possible, or practical until we get the ability to dismount motorized, and mechanized infantry.
    The ability to dismount will effectively change the entire game, as well as making some of the tactics I have used in this battle obsolete.
    For instance the road blocks by the Para's on the Arnhem perimeter would have been outflanked, by the SS motorized units had they been able to dismount.

    "A"
    I'm going to go with the Wiki suggestion of battering rams, and trebuchets :p
     
  11. Daz

    Daz Member

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  12. john connor

    john connor Member

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    The Tigers lived up to their reputation, then. Be interested to watch in detail how you deal with them, Daz, if you haven't already zipped past that point?
     
  13. Daz

    Daz Member

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    I'm posting updates as I play now, so am not committed to any action yet.

    What I normally do is either one of two things, depending on how much time I have.
    I will move AT assets or tanks close, but not close enough for them to pick up LOS, then wait for them to move into one of the ambushes.
    Or I will give a group of tanks, and tank destroyers individual orders, to close in together on as many sides as I can manage, and overwhelm them.
    Usually after a heavy bombardment to get them as suppressed as possible.
    In this situation I will probably wait for them to come to me.

    Its very much a game of cat and mouse.
    Trying to predict the route they are most likely to take next, and waiting in ambush for them.
     
  14. john connor

    john connor Member

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    I look forward to pics of that - if you can, then?
     
  15. Daz

    Daz Member

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    I'll try and keep you updated on where it goes. FtMttR D6 0901.jpg
     
  16. john connor

    john connor Member

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    Are the numbers down due to combat losses, or were they always quite low? I can't recall how many they had, roughly, when they jumped.
     
  17. Daz

    Daz Member

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    They have sustained quite heavy losses, both in the defence and now in the attack, but they are excellent troops.
    Morale is incredibly difficult to break.

    I think they would most likely put up a good fight to the last man.
    Very soft and easy to kill in open areas, but almost un-movable in the City.
    If you keep them in supply they will last for ever.

    What I want for Christmas is one of these though :cool:

    Siege-mortar.jpg
     
  18. Daz

    Daz Member

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  19. Daz

    Daz Member

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  20. Daz

    Daz Member

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