St.Vith Allies AAR (no Peiper)

Discussion in 'CO2 - After Action Reports' started by SamuraiN, Nov 27, 2019.

  1. SamuraiN

    SamuraiN Member

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    I eliminated the 12 VG by the end of Day 2, i.e. no enemy units left on map, so the Peiper group chose not to come, and I was given a decisive victory immediately, which explains the disproportional kill/loss ratio.
     

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  2. john connor

    john connor Member

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    Well done, SamuraiN. You must be an excellent player. However, what do you do with your arty? I just played Manhay (stock scenario) as Allies, a very quick game and forced myself not to plot any manual artillery - none at all - because I feel certain that this is like a devastating cheat, the way arty is presently set-up in game, because the human player can easily outwit the AI by the use of arty - the AI use of arty is very good in some scenarios (this one, for example) but still approximates more to the real life, bureaucratic (shall we say) issues of getting in arty fires, whereas the human can skip all these these and use arty without any orders delay, as a pin-point-accuracy-instant-devastating-attack-stopper. The AI cannot do this. Hence, I feel better games are had when you use arty with a level playing field and let your own friendly AI call it all in, as it sees fit. This was my result, playing Manhay in this way (albeit not too carefully):

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    Of course, I'm the first to admit I'm a rubbish player. But I was wondering if you could have a try at Manhay, as Allies, using that arty rule, SamuraiN? That is NO PLAYER ORDERED ARTY. Then let us know the result? Just curious how it works out against a good player.
     
  3. SamuraiN

    SamuraiN Member

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    Yup, I would be happy to give it a try. I did not touch that scenario much because I really hate the idea of commanding KG Peiper, though on the Allied side could be a good idea.

    I think ARTY currently is not very effective in assault except for suppresion effect, but much better in defence. But ARTY preparation should be acceptable, though not micromanagement afterwards.

    Actually, one extreme measure is that if you can do with those M7s like what the soviets did, i.e. use them in direct fire role.
     
  4. john connor

    john connor Member

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    But don't even use it for prepped fires. If you do then you also get a significant advantage over the AI. Don't order ANY arty yourself throughout the game - leave it to your AI subordinates. Then you will be in exactly the same position as the AI. You can, of course, attach arty to whichever formation you like (though it will likely wish to move nearer the formation then, so leave time for that) in order to increase the chances of that formation calling in that particular arty unit. You can also move arty individually and place it wherever you like (to keep targets beyond the min range, for example, which can often come into play on this tiny map).

    Let us know what the result is.
     
  5. SamuraiN

    SamuraiN Member

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    It turned out my last attempt was rather lucky. In the end playing at double speed, I had a marginal victory at 66 vs 20 points with 2SS HQ destroyed. So decisive victory was possible had I had the patience for fine management. No manual ARTY management, and I deployed them into front line positions for direct fire.

    However, the problem is that I made a few attempts later, and the results varied significantly in the critical first couple hours before dawn. In all cases I defended both Grandmenil and Manhay. The primary issue is that night engagements are currently a bit erratic. Oftentimes one side fires and the other side never returns fire (even for hours), presumably because of lack of sight. I have witnessed this happening for units on both sides. It was not because of suppression, cohesion, or fatigue, as I checked them.

    I am a bit tired of more tries, but may do so later. Meanwhile, here is my deployment strategy below. Another thing to note is that separately ordering each unit is much faster than through battalion. With AI ARTY, Grandmenil must be held, because it would be extremely difficult to take it back. Manhay Deployment South.png Manhay Deloyment North.png
     
  6. john connor

    john connor Member

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    Thanks SamuraiN. Not sure I understand your deployments diagrams. Though it's fairly simple what you have to do in this scenario, I suppose.

    Where was 2SS HQ when you destroyed it? Curious if it was leading things when it should have been sticking back in the rear.

    I should have suggested, I suppose, that getting round the orders delay by severe micromanaging also advantages you vis a vis the AI, so to be avoided if you want a good. fair game. Individually ordering lots of little units should overload your command in time, though, and that should make all orders slow down, whether individual or to a formation, I think. Did it not work like that?
     
  7. SamuraiN

    SamuraiN Member

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    The SS division HQ was indeed in the rear, at the beginning point of the highway when I destroyed it. I attacked from the east at night.

    The force delay difference was a misconception, as I re-read the manual, there may be a difference of about 10 mins, impacting two units, which did not make a difference in my case, in retrospect.

    Note, the diagram here and my previous AAR are not from the same attempt. I will update new AAR later, and I figured I could more or less get a consistent result now.The key is to use the infantry of TK Kane to interdict them. I tried about ten times before finalising this deployment map. Changing it will most likely cause the loss of Grandmenil, or possibly worse.

    In the diagram, circles are positions to hold. Yellow line are moving routes, and red ones retreating routes.
     
    #7 SamuraiN, Nov 30, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
  8. SamuraiN

    SamuraiN Member

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    Btw, I read one thread that someone else played the Allied side for Manhay, and you said there was too much management of ARTY. Can you help me to find out that thread again? I am a bit curious how he managed the first few hours, as that single ARTY battalion would not help that much even if with manual management, I suppose.
     
  9. john connor

    john connor Member

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    Don't recall the thread, but a single micromanaged battery can stop most attacks in their tracks, at least until the battery ammo runs out.
     

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