Updating the Missing Briefing Information

[Jack Ruetty]

Hey Wiggum

Just went through the Normandy SSRs and they are really complete now. Four scenarios (Bridgehead at Cauquigny, Kellam's Bridge, Combined Cauquigny and Kellam's, and Colleville) are not part of the HON Scenarios booklet so I cannot comment on them. Maybe Stephane can comment on the first thee as he was the scenario designer on them.

I found three little things that I felt could use some clarification:
1. Rebeccca Can You See Me - in the "Eureka Units" SSR where it states "stacked with a Good Order Pathfinder team in the target area" I would change to "stacked with a Good Order Pathfinder team (one of the original 1-4-4 units) in the target area"

2. Flash...Thunder - for Scenario Length I would change "Unknown" to what the HON scenario has which is "No turn limit; scenario ends when there are no more American units on the map"

3. Attack of Das Kochgeshirr - in the British Order of Battle it is a little deceiving that both heroes Chapman and Richards are listed. I would use what the HON scenario has which is "Hero: Random"

The other 6 scenarios I felt were very true to the HON booklet.

When I get some time I will go through HOtN.

Hope this helps
Jack

 

[David Heath]

Hi Jack,

Thank you for double-checking and I have requested Tom make those changes.

 

[Wiggum]

Hi Jack,

Thank you for double-checking and I have requested Tom make those changes.

Hi David and thanks for bringing this to Toms attention,
What i can add is this:

The Weapons Cache:
OOB informations for the VC is missing compared to boardgame, it only shows the sniper, boardgame shows:
3 x 1-4-3
Sniper (as per SSR 1 & 11.4)
Lt Diem

Kellams Bridge has something wrong with the german OOB. It shows 18 german Squads in total from the start but im sure after playing a bit that only 10 are there (maybe the rest are reinforcements that enter later?). Also it seems this scenario mybe has a map change that is not implemented because LOS is a bit "strange" across the bridge, maybe should be checked.

Anyway, going forward i hope new DLC will just have the Boardgame Briefiung information, maybe adjusted (like leaving out Map changes that are already implemented in the digital version). That would really be great if we players could be sure that the OOB and SSR's are just like they need to be, not downgraded. I dont think anyone will complain if the Briefing has a bit more text (SSRs) but some will complain if informations are missing compared to the Boardgame (since this is basically the digital version of the boardgame).

I understand why some parts (like map changes & hidden events) are left out. Otherwise i dont undertand why not just copy and paste from the boardgame briefing...this could avoid confusion of players and changing text actually looks like more work then just copy&paste and can cause issues (see Jack's examples).

You guys are doing a great job with LnL Tactical Digital...already my favorite Hex&Counter PC Wargame of 2020

 

[Jack Ruetty]

Wiggum

I went back and looked at The Weapons Cache" and I see why Tom presented the OOB the way he did. The entire VC OOB is brought on as Events which have been consistently left out of the Scenario Briefings (and I feel rightfully so) for all HON and HOtN scenarios. I know this is the way it is presented in the Starter Kit but possibly the Starter Kit is wrong?

I also looked at the other Starter Kit Scenario A Friend in Need and it seems very accurate.

Will start looking at the other scenarios tonight/tomorrow.

Jack

 

[Stéphane Tanguay]

Guys, in a bit of a squeeze now. Will fire up LNLT digital this Saturday and get back to you on the 4 scenarios that are not in the HON module booklet

 

[Wiggum]

Wiggum

I went back and looked at The Weapons Cache" and I see why Tom presented the OOB the way he did. The entire VC OOB is brought on as Events which have been consistently left out of the Scenario Briefings (and I feel rightfully so) for all HON and HOtN scenarios. I know this is the way it is presented in the Starter Kit but possibly the Starter Kit is wrong?

I also looked at the other Starter Kit Scenario A Friend in Need and it seems very accurate.

Will start looking at the other scenarios tonight/tomorrow.

Jack

Hi Jack

I dont think that makes sense Jack. These forces are listed in the OOB in the boardgame for a reason and not in the "dont read" Paragraphs.
What players dont know and are not supposed to know is when they become avaiable. That they are there is no secret, thats why they are listed in the OOB in the boardgame and therefeore it should be listed in the digital OOB too.

I dont think the digital version should chnage the way the briefings work. This would change how players approach the scenario (basically the VC player thinking he only has one sniper...which already changes his approach or even makes this scenario not interesting for him (why play a scenario were you only get a single unit).

Just copy&paste the boardgame briefing, changes can be made later (like deleting map changes). But putting extra work into the briefing which just leads to confusion and downgrading the briefing with less information is not a good idea i think.

 

[Stéphane Tanguay]

Wiggum,

In this scenario, all VC units (including the sniper) don't come into play until a certain event is revealed so I think hiding everything (including the sniper) could be an improvement IMO on how the scenario is currently written in the boardgame version. it could very well have been scripted this way in fact, simply by putting all the VC OOB in the SSR connected to the revealed event. Currently, the event givs you information on where.

 

[Chris Merchant]

I think too much attention is being paid to briefings being to the letter.

 

[Jack Ruetty]

I dont think that makes sense Jack. These forces are listed in the OOB in the boardgame for a reason and not in the "dont read" Paragraphs.
What players dont know and are not supposed to know is when they become avaiable. That they are there is no secret, thats why they are listed in the OOB in the boardgame and therefeore it should be listed in the digital OOB too.

Went back and looked and you are right (not that I ever doubted you). So if you were playing the board game, the VC units would have to be in either the OOB or the Events. So there is an obvious call for the units to be listed in the OOB (like in the board game). But then they are put on board with an Event. Kind of an unusual situation. I can actually see the call either way.

Jack

 

[Jack Ruetty]

Chris:

I agree and they don't need to be to the letter. When I looked through the HON briefings all I looked for was information that I deemed important to shaping strategy and understanding the situation and therefore should be included. For example I was looking at Battle of Chin Dhuc/Duc Hanh from HOtN last night. When you are playing the scenario you potentially cannot perform any action on any VC unit and there is not explanation as to why. You cannot move, fire anything. Looking back at the board game rules there is an explanation. I think that explanation is important to include in the briefing both for the VC and the Australians as there are certain strategies they can follow based on this knowledge.
Jack

 

[Wiggum]

I think too much attention is being paid to briefings being to the letter.

Its not about "being to the letter". Although this would solve many issues with missing informations like SSRs
Like Jack just pointed out there are still some briefings in the digital version that are missing important OOB or SSR informations which can frustrate players (and already has frustrated many).

Going forward i hope attentions is being paid that new Modules will include all necessary Briefing infomrations so we players dont miss stuff like important SSRs. It cant be that hard, LnL has all the informations avaiable and honestly i would rather have a "to the letter" briefing then a downgraded briefing missing important informations.

 

[Wiggum]

Another case of important briefing informations missing in the digital version:

A Friend in Need:
Victory Conditions:

Digital version:
The side with the most Victory Points (VPs) at the end of the scenario wins. VPs are earned for capturing hex and eliminating enemy units

Original Boardgame Version:
The side with the most Victory Points (VPs) at the end of the scenario
wins. VPs are earned as follows:

• Both sides receive 1 VP for each Wooden (LC) Building or Bamboo Huts hex controlled (22.1) at the end of the scenario.

• The Viet Cong receive 2 VPs for each American Squad or SMC eliminated.

• The Americans receive 1 VP for every VC/NVA Squad or SMC eliminated.

At the start of the scenario, the Viet Cong control all hexes in which they could set up.
Squads reduced to Half-squads are worth half the VPs earned for eliminating a Squad.

Confuses players and changes how they approach scenarios.
Then they think "its a bug he get 2VPs for eliminating and i only get one".
Also, the thing with the "half squads" is important to know.

 

[Jack Ruetty]

Hey Wiggum

Just went through the Vietnam SSRs. Three scenarios (Operation Starlight – Hotel Company, Men and Mice and Ambush) are not part of the HOtN Scenarios booklet so I cannot comment on them.

I found some things that I felt could use some clarification:
1. Sky Soldiers
A. US Army OOB Air Support Available on Turn 3. In actuality there is 1 mission on turn 3, one on turn 5, one on turn 7. Would change “Available on Turn 3” to “One Mission available Turn 3, One Mission available Turn 5, One Mission available Turn 7”

B. SSR. NVA Sniper can only be placed within two hexes of an NVA MMC. Should be 3 hexes. This is a typo as the scenario itself uses three hexes.

C. SSR Air Support. Would change the last sentence to “No Spotting Round is used, the FFE marker drifts 1d6-2 hexes, the FFE marker cannot be corrected and the FFE marker cannot be removed before resolution of the attack.”

2. Battle of Chin Dhuc/Duc Hanh
A. For the Sentry Post part of the VC OOB need to include the following note: “Note: This unit cannot perform any actions on Turn 1 unless fired on by an Australian unit or if Australian unit (except the scout) moves or Assaults Moves (not Low Crawls) adjacent to it. It can act normally in Turn 2.”

B. For the other two parts of the VC OOB needs the following note: “Note: These units are asleep at the start of the scenario. They only activate if a unit fires or if they are attacked.”

3. Battle of Long Tan
A. Mistake in the VC OOB. The third group shows 2 RPDs but the board game rules show only 1.

4. Search and Destroy
A. SSR Rules for Hidden VC. Need to add something about VC units must be placed 2 hexes from any American unit. Not sure if the board game rules mean exactly 2 hexes or within 2 hexes. The digital game lets you place VC units adjacent to American units thus implying within 2 hexes.

5. The Marketplace Massacre
A. Mistake in the USMC OOB. The third group has 3X3-6-4 while the board game has 3X2-6-4.

B. Mistake in the USMC OOB. The fifth group has 3X3-6-4 while the board game has 3X2-6-4.

Outside of the debate on whether to include the VC OOB in The Weapon Cache, the other 5 scenarios seem good.

Jack

 

[Wiggum]

Thank you Jack. I hope this will all soon be fixed.

Going forward i hope we players dont have to do this for each new Module (DLC) with every Scenario. It should be easy for LnL to just provide the Briefings fully without missing informations right from the start. Should be mostly copy&past honestly, the LnL guys have the PDFs. I dont get why so much was downgraded, left out or misspelled or spelled twice (like in the OOBs).

 

[Stéphane Tanguay]

Guys, in a bit of a squeeze now. Will fire up LNLT digital this Saturday and get back to you on the 4 scenarios that are not in the HON module booklet

OK, found some info missing from Bridgehead at Cauquigny. Sent reports to Tom about them. Some cosmetic typo in Kellam's Bridge (Baumann listed twice for example) Nothing to signal for Collevile. The cool thing with LNLT is that a lot of SSR are not needed any more because you can integrate them in the game (for example, pretending that bocage are really hedges or that a certain hex should be considered clear)

 

[Wiggum]

Some cosmetic typo in Kellam's Bridge (Plassman listed twice for example)

Thanks Stéphane

I think there are more then one errors with the german OOb in this scenario. Number of Squads available, Plassman and another SMC listed twice. Or am i mistaken here?

 

[Stéphane Tanguay]

Oh there are other errors; I was just citing Plassman (edit: it should have been Baumann, I corrected my previous post) as an example. Tom got the full info. And now, I know why this error is there. the duplicate units are what you get, along with survivors from the Bridgehead at Cauquigny scenario, when you play these two as a mini-campaign

 

[David Heath]

Hi Everyone,

I showed the issues to Tom and this is what he wrote back.

There is no way that the whole paragraph will fit in the objective box and it can not be resized.

Unit VP are listed when you hover over each unit. Terrain VP is going in the upgraded hex info thing. Squad reduction to half-squad VP is a general rule that applies to all scenarios.

David

 

[David Heath]

Thank you Jack. I hope this will all soon be fixed.

Going forward i hope we players dont have to do this for each new Module (DLC) with every Scenario. It should be easy for LnL to just provide the Briefings fully without missing informations right from the start. Should be mostly copy&past honestly, the LnL guys have the PDFs. I dont get why so much was downgraded, left out or misspelled or spelled twice (like in the OOBs).

It not as simple as you think and we will try to find better solutions as we move forward.

David

 

[Wiggum]

Thanks David for bringing these issues to Tom's attention.

Hi Everyone,

I showed the issues to Tom and this is what he wrote back.

There is no way that the whole paragraph will fit in the objective box and it can not be resized.

Unit VP are listed when you hover over each unit. Terrain VP is going in the upgraded hex info thing. Squad reduction to half-squad VP is a general rule that applies to all scenarios.

David

That does not make sense. We are talking about the Briefing not about the "objective box".
The Information needs to be in the briefing...its part of the briefing. Its clear that not everything will fit into the "objective box" but at least have the full version avaiable in the briefing. Honestly his answer confuses me.

This could be so easy...have the full information in the briefing. And list only the reached VP in the "objective box". In scenarios were the text does not fit just say "Please reference the Briefing for the full Victory Conditions"...simple, elegant and we get all information we need.

Can you ask him why this would not be possible?

Anyway, good to know that "hover over" thing. But in big scenarios there might be one unit which gives 5VP while every other unit gives only 1VP...briefing does not explain it in the digital version (in the boardgame it does) so the player has to hover over every enemy unit to see this?
Thats not a good design in my opinion...sorry (just giving feedback here, dont want to sound rude).

It not as simple as you think and we will try to find better solutions as we move forward.

David

Well i just hope we the players will have all informations we need to play LnL Tactical like it should be played. The road taken currently with downgrading the briefings and basically "hiding" some informations in different windows (like the VP's) is not a good one in my opinion. At least we should have one window (the briefing we can view, not the objective box) with ALL infomration we need to know, inluding SSRs, the full OOB and how Victory points are distributed. That would fix all the problems and honestly i still cant see why this would be so hard to do. (again i dont want to sound rude, just giving feedback).

Greetings.