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World At War 85 Clarification and Corrections Color

World At War 85 Clarification and Corrections Color v1.2 Rev25

Keith Tracton

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Either I'm missing something or LoS mechanics are intrinsically flawed "as written" in the cases where it's checked between units at different heights with an obstacle between them. "As written" it only makes sense when checking from an attacker at a higher position than the target, which will have the opposite effect when checked from the lower position...

e.g. Using the example given on page 56, LOS Figure 09, but shooting from the lower position, from 3 hexes away from the woods, according to the rule, the Blind Spot would be 3 hexes (the distance between the attacker and the blocking hex), starting immediately behind the blocking hex, meaning that the Russian tank on the hill would be in the Blind Spot, hence out of LoS, whereas if the LoS was checked from this unit (when he is the attacker), and since he is only two hexes away from the woods, it would create a 2 hex blind spot behind the woods and thus would have the tank 3 hexes behind the woods at 0 height in plain LoS.

Obviously we could use the reciprocity rule that states if one unit has LoS to it's target so it's target will have LoS to it, BUT this wording creates a obvious conundrum, and really needs to be revised so that the makes sense and can be applied without issues from either position, as Blind Spots work in a fundamentally opposite way when you are at a higher or lower position and closer or further apart from the blocking terrain. e.g. from the lower position the closer you are to the blocking terrain the closer the target needs to be to have a LoS to it, and the farther from the intervening, blocking terrain, it is the further beyond the blocking terrain it can have LoS to, meaning it actually works in the opposite way of the rules as written if I'm seeing things right, and thus it should read something like "(...) when the unit shooting occupies the lower position the blocking hex creates a Blind Spot along the LOS, starting X hexes behind the blocking hex equal to the distance from the attacker to the blocking hex." e.g. a shooting unit, at height 0, 1 hex away from an intervening Blocking Hex wouldn't be able to shoot at any target since the blind spot would start 1 hex behind blocking terrain, whereas a unit 3 hexes away from the same blocking terrain would have it's blind spot starting 3 hexes behind the blocking hex, hence would be able to shot at units 1 or 2 hexes behind the blocking terrain.

This would affect also the following mechanic (shooting between units where either is two or more levels higher than the blocking obstacle height). My solution would ADD/REMOVE 1/height differential to the Blind Spot distance, in the cases of units shooting from lower to higher positions and higher positions to lower respectively. e.g. a unit shooting from height 0, 3 hexes away from woods (height 1) at a target at height 3 would be able to trace LoS up to 3 hexes away from the woods, since the Blind Spot would only start 4 hexes away (3 from the distance from the shooter to the woods + 1 from the 2 height difference between the target unit height and the blocking hex height). In the opposite direction, a unit shooting from a Height of 3, 2 hexes from the intervening woods (height 1), would have a Blind Spot of 1 hex starting behind the woods (2 from the distance from the shooter to the blocking woods - 1 from the 2 height differential).

Is my reasoning sound or am I missing something?

Hi Alex,

You are correct the wording was off, as you point out it should have been "higher" not "attacker". The specific text of how the Clarification will appear once I get the Clarifications updated will be:

Page 56, 10.2.3: The last two lines of the paragraph in the right-hand column should be ...distance between the higher unit and the blocking hex.

I had it handy because my project for the night is to get a draft to the editor/writer to get all the clarifications out.

Meantime, I hope this helps!
 

Starman

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The rules should say LoS is always traced from the higher unit to the lower unit , not the attacking unit. It is implied.

If either of the units is in a hex with a unit height that is one level higher than a blocking hex’s obstacle height, the blocking hex creates a Blind Spot along the LOS, starting immediately behind the blocking hex, and stretching from there for the same number of hexes as the distance between the higher unit and the blocking hex to the lower unit.

If either of the units’ heights is two or more levels higher than the blocking hex’s obstacle height, the Blind Spot behind the intervening terrain is only one hex, tracing LOS from the higher to Lower unit

EDIT posted at the same time as Keith :(
 
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The rules should say LoS is always traced from the higher unit to the lower unit , not the attacking unit. It is implied.

If either of the units is in a hex with a unit height that is one level higher than a blocking hex’s obstacle height, the blocking hex creates a Blind Spot along the LOS, starting immediately behind the blocking hex, and stretching from there for the same number of hexes as the distance between the higher unit and the blocking hex to the lower unit.

If either of the units’ heights is two or more levels higher than the blocking hex’s obstacle height, the Blind Spot behind the intervening terrain is only one hex, tracing LOS from the higher to Lower unit

EDIT posted at the same time as Keith :(


Was actually going to reply to Keith stressing out one point you just made, that it should be noted, explicitly, that LoS should ALWAYS be traced from higher unit to lower unit, AND the Blind Spot ALWAYS stretches from the Blocking hex towards the lower unit.

But this does not "fix", in my opinion, the rule where either unit´s height is two or more levels higher than the blocking hex´s obstacle height. As it is, in this simplified form, it can create truly illogical cases. For instance, in a scenario with 3 maps it can actually mean that a unit at height 0, two hexes from a wood hex, right at the beginning of a edge of the map will be able to see a unit at height 3 on the other side of the map, on the opposite edge because it ever only creates 1 hex Blind Spot, no matter the distance from the higher unit to the blocking hex. I know it's a simplification but since you implemented a somewhat objective formula to establish a Blind Spot based on the number of Hexes from the higher unit to the blocking hex, I don't see the need to simplify in this case, especially since all it took was to subtract an hex from the Blind Spot total (to the minimum of 1 Hex Blind Spot) per 1height differential above 2 (inclusive).
 

Starman

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If height equaled distance then at 1 level difference we would have distance + height difference and at 2 levels we would have distance x height difference.

However in WaW85 height levels are a 10th to a 6th of distance to obstacle in hexes.

At 3 maps 9000 metres a 10-25m obstacle at 400 metres with an elevation of 60-75 metres, 35-50 metres difference is not going to have the impact you think. Mathematically the blind hexes approximately match those in the game based on multi levels being at the higher end e.g. 3 levels is 65-75 metres high.

I calculated it to double check , try it with graph paper if you don't have the geometry, if all at max height 75m , 50m diff, then maybe an extra blind hex every 750 meteres (5 hexes) .

Most units effective range is less 2000 metres and even on board Artillery rarely greater than 3000 metres.
 
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A quick draw indicated that, using the ground scale of 150m/hex and the upper height limit of 25m per height level, that a unit 15 hexes from a wood hex at Level 3, would create (at least) a 2 hex blind spot, meaning it should only have a LoS to a unit at 0 level height on the 3 hex from the wood hex, ergo, a ground unit needed to be 3 hexes away from the woods to be able to have LoS to a unit at level 3 height 15 hexes behind the wood hex. My graphs could be wrong (as it was a very quick effort, but...

Yeah, 15 hex range is a long range BUT it can be used, for instance to spot for Artillery.

In any case it's only a suggestion.
 

Keith Tracton

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The rules should say LoS is always traced from the higher unit to the lower unit , not the attacking unit. It is implied.

If either of the units is in a hex with a unit height that is one level higher than a blocking hex’s obstacle height, the blocking hex creates a Blind Spot along the LOS, starting immediately behind the blocking hex, and stretching from there for the same number of hexes as the distance between the higher unit and the blocking hex to the lower unit.

If either of the units’ heights is two or more levels higher than the blocking hex’s obstacle height, the Blind Spot behind the intervening terrain is only one hex, tracing LOS from the higher to Lower unit

EDIT posted at the same time as Keith :(


LOL no worries! All reiteration help appreciated! :)
 
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Rule 11.0 Move & Fire

Third Paragraph pertains to Units with Black AP/HE FP Dice, with no mention of ground units with Green or Blue AP or HE in that paragraph ar any of the following, BUT the table bellow puts units with Black, Green or Blue in the exact same situation.

Being that the case the Third paragraph should read something like "Units with Black, Blue or Green Ap/HE FP dice (...)" to avoid any doubts or confusion.
 

CRFout

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Defense of Frankfurt: The Soviet D30 artillery piece should have an AP range of "2" vice "22". Counter top left should read 2-2-6.

The D-30 is the same gun as the 2S1 SPA (AP: 5-3-5) but with a much worse sighting and firing system.
 

Keith Tracton

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Defense of Frankfurt: The Soviet D30 artillery piece should have an AP range of "2" vice "22". Counter top left should read 2-2-6.

The D-30 is the same gun as the 2S1 SPA (AP: 5-3-5) but with a much worse sighting and firing system.

Thanks! I know what happened here and it was a production deadline issue. During expansion development, I still needed some ammunition performance info for the D-30 used for Direct Fire, and I inserted placeholder values. The range was based on slightly less than half HE range; the 2-6 was conservative in deference to the range. My bad, I did not get the info I needed in time, so the D-30 was finalized as you see printed. If it is any consolation those numbers were those with which the scenario was balanced, so the counters are in fact correct for the game. :)

However, I am very interested in any info you might be able to throw my way on the differences between the sights and firing mechanisms? Much appreciated and thanks for your attention to detail!
 

CRFout

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"However, I am very interested in any info you might be able to throw my way on the differences between the sights and firing mechanisms? Much appreciated and thanks for your attention to detail!"

The 2A18 (D-30) 122mm towed artillery piece was an improvement over earlier models. In particular, muzzle velocity was substantially increased while recoil was reduced by the addition of a high efficiency muzzle brake. Unfortunately, the brake was so efficient that it could injure the firing crew. So the lanyard was lengthened substantially, for literal standoff distance.

The D-30 has a relatively basic but effective telescopic sight for direct fire, but the time it takes to sight in the weapon and then back everyone off to fire it, makes it great against non-moving targets, but rather poor against moving vehicles.

It's still a good light howitzer, though, and is still in service in many countries. It reportedly has a 10km circle of probability of under 25 meters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/122_mm_howitzer_2A18_(D-30)
 

CRFout

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Thinking about it a bit more. For game purposes, I personally would make the AP range of the D-30 three, but I could see making it a four. Certainly not more than its brother the 2S1 with a five.

Why a range of three? Because then it would be able to direct fire out to 6 hexes, following up with the 7 hex minimum for indirect fire.

To be honest, I initially suggested a range of two because I though that the "22" on the counter was a double tap on the keyboard.
 

CRFout

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Update: OK, I found better info on the D-30. It should have the 5 range of its more mobile sister 2S1. Here's a video of one being fired.
 
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