Grayhound Dash feedback

[JyriK]

Hi all,

When playing the Axis this scenario is a bit problem, in a wrong way it seems. No matter how well you secure your right flank (I have tried this several times), without not wholly abandoning advancement to the west, there are US armoured units somehow infiltrating to your rear, in a suicide mission to cause a havock there. Checking the scenario these are the early task force units, that appear not to be interested in blocking advancement routes for the Axis, but are highly trained guerillas with stealth technology. This can't be right. I'm thinking perhaps lowering the victory objective priorities for the easternmost locations (for the Allies) might help a bit.

It is an excellent game otherwise, and I have bought my first module already.

 

[JyriK]

Well, it didn't help. A couple of screenshots to illustrate my point.

A close up of the guerilla:

Now I understand that visibility is poor, but there should be sound detection before these tanks appear behind your lines. I highly doubt tank infiltration was a valid tactic in any case.

 

[JyriK]

FYI, the last couple of efforts were with 1.31. I rolled back to 1.28 and found only one Eng Coy behind my lines, which is more acceptable. With dynamic AI, this may be just a coincidence, but generally the scen is rolling better (although I had the same problem with it earlier when not so careful with flank protection).

 

[john connor]

A save would be good, to check things, JyriK.

Did you open up the scenario in scenmaker and have a look at how the allied units are getting there? Are they reinforcements that appear there?

The scenario is historical, I believe, so there will certainly be a historical basis for the units appearing where they appear, at least their initial positions.

UPDATE: SPOILER WARNING!!!!!!!!
I opened it up in scenmaker and the only allied units I see over there are TF Kane which appears at Day 2 between 11am and 2pm in Grandmenil. This can't be the units you are querying, I guess, as you're only on day 1, right? Are you playing the historical version?

That would mean those allied units infiltrated past you, moving from the top of the map. Why do you think that couldn't happen at night? There are many historical accounts of it happening. Sometimes the accounts talk of engine sounds being detected, but if visibility is really poor then it can be difficult to work out what's going on without sending units back (as you have done?) to get los on the sounds. It's also possible that your units HAVE actually detected only sounds. Are you sure of the identity of the allied units?

Like I said, post a save here would be best, then someone can look at it properly, hopefully...

 

[JyriK]

Yes, I opened the scen in the scen maker and there are task force reinforcements on day 1 (IIRC). I'm playing the historical version. The problem here is that they they infiltrate through quite good cover. Only way I could make it better is to micromanage every single coy and scatter them to cover every possible and impossible route, but it seems over the top, and besides the point of playing this game. I'll check if I have a proper save file available.

 

[Kurt]

Guerillas / partisans , yes most agree they should be restricted to historically relevant theaters .

 

[JyriK]

Unfortunately I have only a couple of Day 3 saves available. One can test it easily though, starting the scen, applying a decent plan, and seeing what happens. I assume the infiltration is worse with version 1.31.

 

[simovitch]

Well, TF Hogan got stuck behind the lines with several tanks along a ridge overlooking the Ourthe but they really just wanted to get back to their own lines. The AI will do this type of stuff and you really have to set up roadblocks with AT and flak units at every intersection to stop this sort of breaching of your security. It's not altogether unrealistic.

 

[JyriK]

Well, TF Hogan got stuck behind the lines with several tanks along a ridge overlooking the Ourthe but they really just wanted to get back to their own lines. The AI will do this type of stuff and you really have to set up roadblocks with AT and flak units at every intersection to stop this sort of breaching of your security. It's not altogether unrealistic.

Yeah, that's the point. One would think that motorized units would like to get back to the supply network as soon as possible. At least they wouldn't go for deep raids when the enemy is advancing everywhere around them.

 

[JyriK]

Reading through Daz's old AAR, I see that he suffers no ant raid problems with much less flank cover. He had advanced rapidly, as I did originally, and there's only one recon coy behind the lines on a route that he didn't use for the advance. So something has changed regarding the scen or the game engine. I can't remember this sort of a ant problems happening with either HttR or CotA back in the day.

 

[simovitch]

Good observations here. Nothing changed with the scenario but visibility and therefore situational awareness has been reduced in the game engine with 1.31. That may have something to do with it.

 

[JyriK]

Do note that it happens with 1.28 too, but to lesser extent due better visibility.

 

[Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor]

It's probably a side effect of the mods we made to the visibility. I'd like a lot more feedback from other scenarios before I start tweaking the changes.

 

[jimcarravallah]

It's probably a side effect of the mods we made to the visibility. I'd like a lot more feedback from other scenarios before I start tweaking the changes.

I don't think anyone can argue with the logic behind the visibility changes.

The OP said that the noise of mechanized forces moving through lines should trigger a response -- which is a whole different story.

 

[JyriK]

One related concern is how can the AI make any decent decisions if visibility is at minimum.

 

[Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor]

The same as the RL commanders had to. You can't see them because of the poor viz but you no they control that space and so you assume there is some enemy firepower influence there. If you have to advance, then you do so but maintain a strong reserve so you can react to events.

 

[simovitch]

I think JyriK means: How will the computer player formulate plans when it's own intel is now very limited?

Part of the answer to that is the computer player formulates plans based on scenario objectives and should still do a fair job of dealing with any enemy that it stumbles into on the way.

 

[jimcarravallah]

. . . the computer player formulates plans based on scenario objectives and should still do a fair job of dealing with any enemy that it stumbles into on the way.

Which is kind of how most of the battles history reports as orderly affairs happened anyway ;-)

We tend to play a game and expect the outcomes to be predictable when, in fact, little of what we read in history could have been predicted before the event started, and little of how history recorded it as evolving could have been predicted either.

I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how Lee could have won the battle of Gettysburg, but that was ignoring the fact that Gettysburg wouldn't have taken place had the rebels not worn out their shoes and took a flier on stealing some when they happened to be near a Pennsylvania shoe manufacturing factory.

 

[Agema]

Anecdotally - and I have no saves to prove the point - I've played this scenario several times and there are always loose US motorised units trying to infiltrate the right flank. You can maul them a bit when they're incoming by blocking the routes in around Lamormenil, but after that you just need to have some sort of mobile unit with reasonable AT capability around Samree - Doschamps to mop them up or push them out. (PzIV/Panthers usually overkill, mind)

The AI is pretty slow to the left flank though - I usually have engineers try to rig most of the bridges along the river to Hotton to blow with engineers (bar 1 or 2 bridges I want to keep) to minimise the stress of trying to cover all those too later on. I find pretty much all those missions towards the end of the German expansion very tough as the Germans. I usually just grab modest gains (e.g. Hotton & Soy in GD) in the first 2 days and then try to dig in and hope the Americans exhaust their overwhelming numbers trying to dislodge me.

* * *

Talking about AI, last time I played a few months back I was having a go at the main historical Arnhem campaign as the paras. I quickly took the rail bridge, and fought through Oosterbeek to the west Arnhem suburbs by day 2. Having the rail bridge, I dug in rather than assault through disturbingly heavy opposition to the road bridge. I had a perimeter north around the woods to Wolfhezen to cover the supply point, then south through the forest to Heavesdorp to cover the rear.

By day 5, there had been numerous assaults on the east side of the perimeter at West Arnhem. However, during that same time, the north and west flanks had barely been tickled and there was no sign of the enemy there. Mystified, I exited and checked the "end battle" review... and all those German troops who arrive in the West had simply skirted right around my perimeter and settled into central Arnhem - I had about 4-5 battalions defending against nothing at all. I think I could have sent a battalion all the way to Amsterdam without them meeting a German serviceman on the way.

 

[col.sanders]

I would say that is fairly accurate,I try to have recon units to move around here and there a company or platoon to look around,it is what real life commanders would have to do,these units move between any gaps in your flank security.