Possible Scenarios

[Uhlanfan]

Worlds at War 85

1. 
   I have been reviewing your WAW85 rules and find them very interesting. I currently have most of the digital versions of several games and would like to see this one in that same format.
   

I have some comments concerning an issue you may have missed that could form one, or several scenarios in your games.



This would be the city of West Berlin and its relevancy to that time period. These days, few understand its importance especially since the Soviet Union collapsed. Given the theme of WAW85 and the Soviets starting the ball rolling with an invasion of West Germany (Federal Republic of Germany (FRD)) West Berlin becomes more of an issue. Why could they not solve the Berlin problem easily?



Given the WAW85, the USSR has basically three ways to deal with the city during an attack westward:



1. Drop nukes on it and remove the problem but that hits their own and allied forces.

2. Post POW signs around the city and ignore it until after westward actions succeed.

3. Invade and try to destroy the Allied forces as part of the overall invasion.

1. 
   So what kind of Allied forces are in the city normally? Only the best combat troops provided by three countries who have had decades to prepare. In the US Army a soldier would not be sent there if they had even one Article 15 in their career. The UK had the following units: 1st BN Grenadier Guards, 1st BN Irish Fusileers, 1st Sqdrn 23rd Chassuers (light cavalry with heavy tanks!). The US and French forces were comparable, plus all of the various artillery, support and logistics troops. There was a battalion of West Berlin (FRD) gate guards who were combat ready also. Each national force was commanded by a BG equivalent. The overall Allied commander was an American MG.
   

Option 1 above ends the problem and escalates the war to a level they want to avoid. Option 2 leaves a massive force in place that could cripple all of the Soviet efforts. Option 3 seems the most likely but given the Russian experience concerning a Berlin invasion, I doubt they would use their own forces, needed more for the westward attack. Thus, it wold probably fall to other Warsaw Pact troops, primarily German Democratic Republic (DDR) or Polish as the next largest armed forces in the Pact. Possibly Czech or one of the smaller forces. The Pact countries were not all good friends, there was a lot of distrust and actual hate in some relationships.



I think you could easily create several scenarios for such an engagement, but at this org level would need 1, or more maps that are all city hexes. Such a battle could be very intense and bloody for both sides.



Thanks for releasing WAW85 and I look forward to a digital version.

 

[Keith Tracton]

World at War 85 - West Berlin?

Definitely has been on our back burner for quite a while, just a preliminary map study. But...my comments below.

1. I have been reviewing your WAW85 rules and find them very interesting. I currently have most of the digital versions of several games and would like to see this one in that same format.

The last time I spoke about this with David my understanding is it is in the works though no timeframe as yet.

This would be the city of West Berlin and its relevancy to that time period. These days, few understand its importance especially since the Soviet Union collapsed. Given the theme of WAW85 and the Soviets starting the ball rolling with an invasion of West Germany (Federal Republic of Germany (FRD)) West Berlin becomes more of an issue. Why could they not solve the Berlin problem easily?

Given the WAW85, the USSR has basically three ways to deal with the city during an attack westward:

1. Drop nukes on it and remove the problem but that hits their own and allied forces.

Fortunately, given our scale, our game does not encompass those decisions. TBH tactical (or larger) nukes in a platoon level game simply make the game moot. Like Orbital Artillery in a sci-fi man-to-man squad level game...

2. Post POW signs around the city and ignore it until after westward actions succeed.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry tat this one...

3. Invade and try to destroy the Allied forces as part of the overall invasion.

Bingo!

I think you could easily create several scenarios for such an engagement, but at this org level would need 1, or more maps that are all city hexes. Such a battle could be very intense and bloody for both sides.

I did a preliminary map study many months ago to get an idea about the scale of WaW85 maps that could be included in such a Volume. Just as we found with the Defense of Frankfurt, the area covered by a WaW85 map (roughly 2 miles x 3 miles) is comparatively small to the overall size of the city of Berlin itself. So, with four different nationalities defending four different major areas, I have not decided what areas might be covered by the maps. I would definitely consider doing the actual terrain adapted to WaW85, as with Defense of Frankfurt and Storm and Steel). But to do the entire city (I know you are thinking it) would take many more maps than could be fit in your average livingroom floor.

Thanks for releasing WAW85 and I look forward to a digital version.

Thanks for your support and I am so glad you are enjoying the game!! Rest assured as the digital project gets some footing we will keep everyone posted.

 

[Uhlanfan]

The mapping for these scenarios may not be so massive as it appears. Please remember that Berlin was the divided city:



1. The east (communist) sector formed half of the city.

2. The west (allied) sector was divided into three areas (US / UK / France)



There may not be a need for detail mapping of the eastern sector as that is where most attacks would start, or externally from the surrounding DDR areas. Each of the allied areas could be separate maps for scenarios concerning them specifically. Or the Warsaw Pact forces could start in one and work through the others in a variety of scenarios.



Please see the attached map, found online, for a better understanding of the city.



Regards

 

[Keith Tracton]

Thank you!!

 

[CRFout]

Little known fact about West Berlin -
They were not allowed to have their own military. Instead, they had a 60,000 man "reserve police force" equipped with armored vehicles and heavy weapons. Yes, oddly enough, they were organized into 4 divisions of 12 brigades, with a corps commandant and general staff. Each Western occupation zone had its own division, with the fourth as general reserve. Yes, oddly enough, the reserve policemen and their officers were trained by the Bundeswehr in the West.

For "crowd control", of course, in case a protest march got extra unruly.

 

[CRFout]

Other little known fact about potential war and West Berlin -
The GSFG artillery division (34th Guards Artillery Division) was stationed in Potsdam, just outside the American sector of the city.

 

[Nicolas Michon]

Could be fun. I'll take care of the Forces Françaises à Berlin, ORBAT here: http://armee-francaise-1989.wifeo.com/les-forces-francaises-a-berlin.php. They were fully integrated in the NATO command structure (contrary to the rest of the French army). Charles, if you have the ORBAT of the Berlin "Polizei" ("Ach, your T80 vas going über the speed-Grenze, ja?"), that would be great - and would make for a much more interesting module. None of the strategic / operational games I've seen have it, and it would seriously change the odds.

 

[CRFout]

I'm doing this from memory, as the the original information has been obfuscated for obvious reasons.
60,000 men in the Corps, organized into 4 divisions, with 12 brigades of "crowd control/anti-riot" infantry.
The Corps and Divisions, as far as I know, were for organization, support, and intelligence. They didn't seem to have any combat formations of their own that I ever heard of. Patrol cars were mostly used for scouting and courier duties. Trucks moved men and materiel. Yes, they did have EW capabilities. (Can't have those unlicensed radio stations, now can we?) This corps was purpose designed for defense of the city, so it had a remarkably large tooth to tail ratio.

Each Western occupation zone had one division, plus a division for the city center. Each division had three brigades.

Each brigade had three light battalions and a medium battalion, plus a crowd dispersal agent launcher (mortar) company, a forced entry (combat engineer/pioneer) company, and an barricade breaching (towed anti-tank artillery + panzerfaust) company. No, I don't know what anti-tank guns they had, I never saw those. I suspect they only had one platoon of them in each anti-tank company.

Each light battalion had three light infantry companies (trucks) and a wheeled APC company (UR-416?), plus a heavy weapons company with a mortar platoon, an engineer platoon, and an anti-tank (Panzerfaust) platoon. They also had patrol cars for scouting.

Each medium battalion had four companies of wheeled APC (Fuchs?) infantry, plus the heavy weapons company. Plus patrol cars for scouting.

Each infantry company had four platoons.
Each platoon had four squads.
Each infantry squad had anti-tank weapons (Armbrust - capable of being fired from enclosed locations), as well as a GPMG (MG3).
The engineers/pioneers were well equipped with anti-tank mines and demolition charges, in addition to the normal infantry weapons.

The APCs in the light battalions were like the UR-416: https://tanknutdave.com/the-german-ur-416-4x4-wheeled-apc/
The APCs in the medium battalions were like the Fuchs.
The battalion mortars were 60mm. The brigade mortar company used 4.2" mortars. Yes, those were American mortars. Yes, they had lots of tear gas, as well as hot and cold smoke and HE rounds. (Hot smoke is better known as white phosphorous.)

The regular police force also had several armored vehicles, but they were armed with water cannons. Remarkably effective for crowd control. They worked with tear gas so much that most of them seemed almost immune to its effects.

Note that the entire sewer system was well mapped and designed so that men could walk through most sections. The sewer system was of the open type, incorporating rainwater runoff as well as sewerage, with numerous access points on every single road. I can't speak for the French, but the US, British, and Germans routinely held drills in the sewer system. The sewers under the roads, along with the central hot water system (really!), kept the roads clear in the winter.

Every house and most apartment apartment buildings had a fenced in yard. The bottom 8" was required to be built to stop .30 machine gun fire. The outer walls of every residential and most office buildings were 16"-24" of reinforced concrete. Why yes, this does stop 14.5mm machine gun fire. Inner walls were 8" of reinforced concrete, which stops .30 gunfire.

 

[Nicolas Michon]

Wow. Very interesting. Do you have the name of that special police force in German? It could correspond to the Bereitschaftspolizei ("BePo") (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bereitschaftspolizei) (whose role included policing demonstrations ... and possibly fighting it out against Spetsnaz or domestic terror groups like the Rote Armee Fraktion, and therefore included 81mm mortars and pretty heavy weapons in its inventory. I am trying to find written documentation of all this, and, since I speak some German, this may help. I am a bit surprised by the size of this: 60,000 men is larger than the French Force d'Action Rapide, which had all of France's professional troops, one wonders where they put them in West Berlin .... and the numbers I've found for the BePo in all of Germany were at ... 60,000 at the most. Thanks again!

 

[CRFout]

The Polizei had their own BePo units. In case of war, the Polizei were to maintain order and direct traffic to make way for the armed forces.

What I'm talking about were Territorials with a fig leaf as "reserve police". I can't find much documentation about them. Their existence wasn't quite classified, but it was kept quiet. They skirted a very thin line in the treaty provisions.

Speaking of territorials, the Munga 106mm RR fits the bill for the anti-tank weapons.

More later.

 

[CRFout]

These are reservists, with all that entails, good, bad, and indifferent. In addition, not everybody is going to answer the muster to arms.

I would organize a light battalion this way:
1 Co: 4x Territorials, 4x Fuchs, HQs 6/5/4.
2 Co: 3x Territorials, 1x Territorials (flipped), HQs 6/5/4.
3 Co: 3x Territorials, 1x Territorials (flipped), HQs 5/4/3.
4 Co: 2x Territorials, 2x Territorials (flipped), HQs 5/4/3.
5 Co: 2x Engineer, 1x Munga, 2x 82mm Mortars (use the E. German counters), 4x Trucks, HQs 6/5/4; 4 HE, 4 Smoke, 4 Chem (CS/Teargas), 2x Placed Minefields.
Battalion Leader: Major Wohlrab.
Companies 2,3 & 4 may enter the battlefield on trucks. The trucks depart and are removed from the map when the troops dismount.

A medium battalion would probably be:
1 Co: 4x Territorials, 4x Fuchs, HQs 6/5/4.
2 Co: 3x Territorials, 1x Territorials (flipped), 4x Fuchs, HQs 6/5/4.
3 Co: 3x Territorials, 1x Territorials (flipped), 4x Fuchs, HQs 5/4/3.
4 Co: 2x Territorials, 2x Territorials (flipped), 3x Fuchs, 1x Fuchs (flipped), HQs 5/4/3.
5 Co: 2x Engineer, 2x Munga, 2x 82mm Mortars (use the E. German counters), 4x Trucks, HQs 7/5/4; 4 HE, 4 Smoke, 4 Chem (CS/Teargas), 2x Placed Minefields.
Battalion Leader: Lt. Col. Garner.

 

[CRFout]

Special Rule: Dismounted Territorials can ride the subway lines, and have buses, trucks and cars available for transport. When not in sight and not within 3 hexes of an enemy unit at the beginning of their activation, they can move up to 12 hexes from a City hex to a City hex, as long as each hex of movement is also not visible and not within 3 hexes of any enemy unit, and none of the hexes are Burned Out, Rubble, or Cleared. When doing this, roll a die. On a 4, transport is unavailable, but the unit may move normally. On a 5, the transport balks and the unit remains in place, waiting in vain. On a 6, some troops desert along the way, and the unit is flipped (or eliminated if already flipped) after movement. Units can enter the map in this fashion without having to make this roll.

Special Rule: Due to heavy building construction and access to the sewer system, dismounted Territorials may ignore the first hit on a roll of 4-6 when in a City hex, including when Burned Out. When in a City hex that is Rubble or Cleared, they ignore the first hit on a roll of 3-6. This effect is in addition to any Improved Positions they may occupy. If the Territorial unit is attacked during movement by enemy opportunity fire, this effect suffers a -1 penalty to the die roll. This effect gains a +1 bonus to the die roll if the Territorial unit is concealed.

 

[Mike Youtz]

A cursory review of my documents shows the 6th Separate Guards MRB (Soviet) being stationed in E. Berlin up until 1994. The 1st MRD (GDR, Cat A) was also in Potsdam during the '80s.

According to the '89 IISS report the GDR also had a BERLIN GUARD REGIMENT: (Ministry for State Security) 7,000 troops consisting of: 6 motor rifle bn, 1 arty bn, 1 trg bn; armed with: PSZH-IV APC, 120mm mor, 85mm, 100mm ATK, ZU-23 AA guns, hel.

My '85 report is at home but I figure the same force as in '89.

Mike

 

[Nicolas Michon]

Hello Charles, thanks a lot. I think you've given me a hint at the German name: there was a mention on the Berlin police website of a "Freiwillige" (volunteer) police force, and a mention that this was a reaction to the creation of a militarized police force on the Eastern side. I will hunt down more info - notably on what would have been a realistic number of effectively mobilized troops (60,000 sounds like a very high number). But even 1/5 of that would have made a huge difference, given that the three US / UK / FR brigades numbered in the region of 10,000.

 

[Mike Youtz]

If you're interest in detailed TO&Es for cold war US, UK and French forces (including the Berlin units), Mark Davies over at Fire & Fury has done most of the work for you. One caveat though. His lists are designed for HIS game system which uses miniatures on stands to represent larger groupings. So, where he refers to a vehicle as x1, he means a single stand which represents two actual vehicles or artillery pieces...or in the case of infantry, a fire-team. Besides that, it's a goldmine for equipment and force organization.

http://www.fireandfury.com/modern/modern.shtml

 

[Nicolas Michon]

Hello Mike, I know this page very well ... and have sent Mark a fully revised version of the French ORBAT, based on more recent French sources, which I have been using for WaW 85. He said himself he had to work from old and sometimes iffy sources. Best, Nicolas

 

[CRFout]

The unit had 12 brigades of 48 maneuver battalions. Very high tooth to tail, if the troops actually showed up to the muster call. But they didn't need much support, as they were defending the city from inside the city. They lived there, and most of the maintenance and logistics were provided by others. In case of war, repair wasn't even a concern, replacements wouldn't be a thing, and logistics would be from caches and public filling stations. They were more of a militia than anything else. I think of them as Freikorps more than Wehrmacht or Polizei.

They really weren't expected to last more than a week or two at best. Most fighting was expected to be a months long guerrilla campaign. They were mostly to add chaos to the conflict, and make the enemy work to take the city. Realistically, the Russians would simply spray paint "POW Camp" on the wall, and be done with it. After wiping out the artillery parks and the listening posts, of course. But that would probably only have taken about 20 minutes of fire from the artillery division.

My goodness, the memories of some of the weird little things in Berlin keep flooding back.

 

[CRFout]

Reasons why the Warsaw Pact would have to invade Berlin -
Artillery - each brigade had their own.
Listening posts - easily destroyed by artillery fire, but can you ever be sure enough?
Tank companies - the US Berlin Brigade had a "tank company" with 37 of the brand new M1A1 tanks. I don't know about the Brits and the French.
3 brigades of infantry - they could theoretically sortie out and disrupt lines of communication.
Airfields - lots of them. Really. Look at the autobahn through the city. Notice how wide and straight it is. Now think about why there were so many filling stations along it.
Observation posts / radio transmitters - too many possibilities to count. I'll never forget working in this one
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernmeldeturm_Berlin
We could see Poland from up there.

 

[Nicolas Michon]

The French had a small regiment of AMX 30B's + an infantry regiment in the city - but also lots of EW (SIGINT) resources in the city, including an air squadron .... I guess the value was mostly symbolic / intel. Best, Nicolas

 

[CRFout]

The Field Station on Teufelsberg was a joint US/UK operation. Plus the US Air Force EW units at Tempelhof and elsewhere. Plus the UK Air Force units at Gatow. So many people listening to the radio...

In my 3 years there, I never once worked with the French. They didn't play with others. Stupid politics.