Forced Disembark and Op Fire

[gashlycrumb]

Hello, can someone please help with the following:
1) If a passenger on top of an AFV is forced to disembark because, for example, of Small Arms Fire Vs. AFVs [17.2] or the AFV fires Ordnance [16.2], does the disembarking passenger have to expend MP's?

2) If a passenger on top of an AFV is forced to disembark because, for example, of Small Arms Fire Vs. AFVs [17.2] or the AFV fires Ordnance [16.2], can the opposing player Op Fire [5.3]?

Thanks!

 

[Carlos S. Olivares Pérez]

1. No. But the unit is marked with Moved.

2. If a passenger is forced to disembark because of an attacking action of the enemy (the active player), that "disembarking" is happening during the Impulse of the attacking (or active) side. The OP Fire is only for the non-active player. So, if your example, the OF is not possible.

You may have doubts if the disembarking is forced by an action of a friendly Vehicle (like Passengers On Top disembarking after a Vehicle fires ordnance); but I don't think that in this situation the OP would be possible because the Passengers are unloaded without spending any MP.

 

[Qwirz]

16.2 "Any passenger dismounting (voluntarily or not)..are subject to OF."

And IIRC if they dismount for an enemy Tank ordnance fire, the tank can target them with its MGs

 

[Carlos S. Olivares Pérez]

16.2 "Any passenger dismounting (voluntarily or not)..are subject to OF."

And IIRC if they dismount for an enemy Tank ordnance fire, the tank can target them with its MGs

Right. But the OP Fire against the Passengers would only be possible during an Impulse of the player that owns the Passengers.

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[Jeff Lewis]

1) No; it's a consequential action and they are marked Moved.

2) They are being fired on and forced to disembark b/c of an enemy impulse fire attack or from Op Fire. Either way, the disembark puts them under a Moved marker. They are not in the act of moving, and not a condition where Op Fire occurs due to it being the enemy impulse or the friendly impulse and they disembarked as a result of Op Fire; this doesn't then provide the chance at more Op Fire unless the hex entered by the vehicle cost 2 MPs, and thus 2 Op Fire attacks can occur and other enemy units could thus fire on them.

 

[Qwirz]

Hi Jeff!
So 16.2 should be clarified....

And IIRC if they dismount for an enemy Tank ordnance fire, the tank can target them with its MGs

Oh! And this was in the old FAQ file.....

 

[Carlos S. Olivares Pérez]

This is 16.2 "Any passengers dismounting (voluntarily or not) from a vehicle are subject to OF. Any attack the passenger-carrying vehicle initiated is resolved before any OF against dismounting infantry".

But from what Jeff said, it is not the fact of being put under Moved what makes a unit susceptible to OF; but the fact of spending MPs. I prefer this point of view.

 

[gashlycrumb]

Hello. Thanks for all everyone’s input on this. I’m still confused though

The 4.1 rules are very well written and clear, but I am unsure of the timing and the exact resolution of Involuntary Disembarkation based on 4.1 RAW and this discussion.

So I made a thing…



US Impulse
IMAGE A: The US 2645 MMC Activates in 5I6 and Moves to 5H7 (1 MP total), and then to hex 5G6 (2 MP total) where the M-48 is.

Question 1
If any of the NVA units wish to Op Fire on the Moving US 2645 MMC, does Op Fire have to occur the moment the US 2645 MMC enters Hex 5G6 (Now, after A, after the US 2645 MMC expends 1 MF to enter Hex 5G6) and/or can the NVA fire after the US 2645 MMC Embarks upon the M48 (After B)?

Question 2
Where does Op Fire from Embarkation occur in the Sequence from p18?

The Sequence outline on p18 states:
1) Unit(s) enters a hex
2) Resolve any FFE or Mines
3) Possible Event triggered
4) All possible OF conducted
5) If unit still in GO, proceed with next action

Question 3
Is the Sequence (for additional MPs spent within the same hex after entering the hex) like this?

1) Unit(s) enters a hex

a. Resolve any FFE or Mines
b. Possible Event triggered
c. All possible OF conducted
d. If unit still in GO, proceed with next action
e. If unit remains in the same hex but spends additional MPS (Pivot, Moving up/down a level in a building, Embarking/Disembarking), return to case c​

IMAGE B: The US 2645 MMC Embarks upon the outside of the M48. The embarkation costs the MMC its remaining 2 MP (4 MP total) and the MMC is marked with a Moved Marker. The Embarkation also activates the M48 unit, which chooses to Assault Move (the M48’s Movement Factors is halved to 6 MF). The embarkation costs the M48 ½ of its current Movement Factors, or 3 MP. [16.4]

Question 4
Can 3 of the NVA units now Op Fire at the M48 and MMC passenger because the M48 expended 3 MP due to the Embarkation of the US 2645 MMC?



IMAGE C: The M48 Fires its Main Ordnance at the spotted NVA in hex 5E5. As per [16.2], because the vehicle is firing ordnance the US 2645 MMC passenger immediately Disembarks (Involuntary) into hex 5G6 and passes its Morale Check.

Question 5
[16.2] states ‘If the vehicle fires ordnance (not machine guns), the passengers must immediately disembark.”
Is the M48s Ordnance attack against the NVA in hex 5E5 resolved first and then the US 2645 MMC passenger disembarks?

Question 6
[16.2] states “Any passengers dismounting (voluntary or not) from a vehicle are subject to OF.”
Can the NVA units Op Fire upon the Involuntary Disembarkation of the US 2645 MMC? If so how many NVA units can Op Fire – how many MPs is the US 2645 MMC considered to have spent after it disembarks from the M48?

Thanks!

 

[Qwirz]

Very interesting points!
Two premises:
1. In 5.3 OF is described as the act of firing on "a hex in which an enemy unit expends at least one MP by any kind of movement other than LC or Stealth".
And then "a unit expending MPs (either entering a new hex, pivoting within a hex or unloading/loading) can be subject to OF attacks equaling the MP cost of the movement".
Further "units in the same hex as the moving unit but in a bunker, cave or the second floor of a multi-story building would not be subject to the OF unless the unit entered the bunker, etc."

2. Reading further the paragraph in 16.2 "any attack the passenger-carrying vehicle initiated is resolved before any OF against dismounting infantry."

In your exemples NVA units can OF on the tank in the first hex it moved, when it pivots and when it enters the new hex (once for each MP expended). You can't of course shoot on embarking units, but you can shoot on the tank expending MP to load them.
You can shoot on disembarking units and/or carrying tank when both expend MPs in that act.
You can shoot on involuntarily disembarking unit AFTER the ordnance fire that caused it is resolved.
I would treat them as they expended 1 MP so one OF.
(As a side Note: also shaken units retreating from FT or Molotov attacks trigger OF.)
I quoted the rule reference about bunker/caves/MSbuildings because the case is very similar to vehicles and units loading/unloading.

Regarding the sequence, I think you must resolve first the tank movement/OF/fire. Then when you move(voluntarily or not) the unit, it should be treated as a "new" activation, so the sequence will start from the beginning.

The FAQ answer I cited in my previous post is inconsistent with rules, because the same tank OFing on vehicle with its ordnance and its MGs on the disembarked unit, will actually shoot on TWO different targets, and this is not allowed.

EDIT: I'm wrong Here. This was a 3.1 rule. In 4.1 a vehicle CAN fire its ordnance and MGs at different targets in the SAME hex.

One more thought: There are a couple more of involuntary movement in the game: Units retreating after an unsuccessful CA or Overrun. The rules do not clearly state they trigger OF.

Cheers

Ruben

 

[Carlos S. Olivares Pérez]

Just a preliminary thing. It seems you put the MMC under Moved after it embarks. To be rigorous, the MMC is put under Moved at the beginning of its movement. This way, the unit is under Moved already on H7, and so the modifiers of being under Moved are also applicable there.

Question 1
The OF can occur on H7, entering on G6 and also when it embarks. The OF may occur when the unit spends MPs.

Question 2
There is a gap in that sequence for the units that embark or disembark.

Question 3
I like your assumption. Seems to be in line with the game.

Question 4
Here you say "The Embarkation also activates the M48 unit, which chooses to Assault Move (the M48’s Movement Factors is halved to 6 MF). The embarkation costs the M48 ½ of its current Movement Factors, or 3 MP." The underlined is not true. The embarkation cost the M48 1/2 of its printed MF. In other words "a Vehicle on Assault Move can substitute its movement action for embarking/disembarking passengers". Regarding the question, I would say you can target the MMC two times, not the Vehicle three times.

Regarding the question 5. The timing is this: the Vehicle fires its ordnance (the attack is resolved), as a consequence of this, the passengers disembark.

Question 6
I would say that you cannot OF against units that have not spent any MPs. Think that the movement cost is the time that an enemy unit has to prepare the attack against the moving unit (1 MP = 1 attack; 2 MPs = 2 attacks...). Now, imagine units falling from a friendly tank... is a very quick action, and I do not think that an enemy unit has the time to prepare an attack against those poor units.

EDIT: edit for clarity.

 

[Jeff Lewis]

Hi Jeff!
So 16.2 should be clarified....



Oh! And this was in the old FAQ file.....

They can still fire the MGs. I don't understand the need for clarification. If a vehicle fires its ordnance first it can still fire its MGs. Disembarked passengers or abandoning Crews are just new targets.

 

[Jeff Lewis]

I have a lot to do right now, but I will address the above at a later time.

 

[Stéphane Tanguay]

Question 1:

OP fire can happen at any moment a unit is spending MP to move. Move means pivoting, entering a new hex, mounting/dismounting and such


Question 2:

In the situation you described, it would happen exactly where you,ve put it in your next questions


Question 3

Yes, but remember that a unit could also spend MPs without actually moving into a new hex in its impulse(for example, by just dismounting in the hex, which, essentially, means that they are moving inside the hex so they are spending MPs to move)


Question 4

No, the M48 did not move inside the hex, he just “spend” MPs waiting for the squad to climb on. This is just a restriction to prevent a tank from moving the same number of hex whether it embarked passengers or not. There is “price” to pay to embark passengers but this is not moving. And, BTW, the tank could not move after embarking passenger if he want to Assault move. The mounting takes the palce of the movement aprt of AM.


Question 5

Yes, because it is the fact that the gun is fired that cause the dismounting. So the firing must occur before the dismounting.


Question 6

Yes, they can Op fire and I would say the unit is considered to have spend 2 MPs (because dismounting voluntarily requires that amount of MPs) so two attack would be allowed.


All this being said, I almost never see infantry on tank in the range of enemy units in my games Same goes for multi OP fire; I can’t remember the last time I OP fire more than once at an enemy unit, even if I was allowed two attacks, for example. That would be using up to much of my manpower in one fell swoop.

 

[Carlos S. Olivares Pérez]

Just one note about question 4. I agree with Stéphane, you cannot target the Vehicle, but I think that you can OP Fire two times against the MMC embarking.

For the rest of questions, except for the question 6, I agree with Stéphane.

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[Qwirz]

So, Stephane, you don't allow OF on the tank which enbarks units, right? Interesting analysis...

 

[Stéphane Tanguay]

I don't allow fire on the tank because it is not moving while embarking infantry and also because of that rule, under 5.3:

If the target hex contains both moving and non-moving units, both are affected by the same OF attack die-roll, but only the moving units suffer the +1 modification to the attacker’s die-roll.

Since there is no way to attack both the vehicle and the moving infantry with the same OF attack DIE ROLL, I don't allow OF on the tank at that point. If, after embarking the infantry, the tank start moving, then it's fair game.

If you think it is silly that a infantry unit, armed with a bazooka, could not fire at the tank (with the bazooka) AND the embarking infantry (with its IFP) at the same time (which is allowed in regular firing situation), then just allow it. I assure you you won't stumble upon this situation very often in the game. Mounting and dismounting infantry on vehicle in the range of enemy units that could OP fire is usually a very bad idea.

BTW, how would you figure out the number of attacks allowed on the vehicle because of the MP "spent" embarking units? Half of the MA of the vehicle ? So you could fire 10 attacks on a jeep (MA:20) embarking passengers ? And just 4 on a Tiger I (MA:8) doing the same thing ?

 

[Qwirz]

LoL..poor little jeep!!!
Agree with you. I've never stumbled in this situation. I'll follow Your way!!!
Thanks!

 

[Stéphane Tanguay]

As for multiple OP fire...

I think the game would be better served if this was restricted to only one, maybe two, OP fire per moving target per hex, instead fo the 1 attack per MP spent. Otherwise, you get into strange situations such as jeep attacked 6 times in a wheat field while infantry would be attacked only 2 times.

Also, playing the game as shown me that you rarely have the luxury of OP firing more than once at a target, because you can't afford to spend much of your available firepower on one moving enemy unit and let the others roam free.

 

[Carlos S. Olivares Pérez]

Let's wait to see what Jeff says. It seems acceptable that OP Fire were not allowed during embarking, as the Passenger and the Vehicle become the same target (and with a different number of MPs spent).

 

[Qwirz]

Just to summarize after Stephan appropriate observations:
1. You can NOT OF on Vehicles embarking/disembarking units.
2. You CAN OF on disembarking units (either voluntarily or involuntarily).
3. You CAN OF on embarking units.
It looks consistent to me.
A little addition: You can OF on disembarking units with a number of attacks equal to the cost of the terrain they disembark in. Just to "define" a sort of regulation
THIS IS WRONG!!!! UNITS DISEMBARKING USUALLY SPEND 2 or 3 MPs. Official ruling is enough.
Thanks all for deepening in the matter

 

[Stéphane Tanguay]

No, you can OF on mounting units. Why would that be different then dismounting ?

As for the MP spent in mounting or dismounting, the offical rule is as many attacks as MP spent to mount/dismount (generally 2).