Heroes of the Pacific Living Rules

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David Heath

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David Heath submitted a new resource:

Heroes of the Pacific Living Rules - Heroes of the Pacific Living Rules

This is the Living Rule Edition for Heroes of the Pacific. The award-winning Lock ’n Load tactical game system enters the Pacific theater with a vengeance. Heroes of the Pacific details America’s brawl with Japan during World War 2, and includes twelve frantic firefights from America’s audacious island-hopping campaign. You will lead desperate Marines struggling ashore on Tarawa, face a counterattack of HA GO tanks at the Peleliu airfield, fight for Kitano Point on Iwo Jima,...

Read more about this resource...
 

Barthheart

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In Section 13.2.3 American Squad Breakdown what are the shaken sides of the Marine units not shown in this graphics but the US Army units do show their shaken states? Make it look like Marines don't shake.....
 

Jeff Lewis

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The US Army are shown b/c they have three different Squad types with differing Good Order and Shaken Morales, and that is where the confusion would come in w/o the graphic illustration. The Marines Shake, of course, but Good Order and Shaken Morales are always the same.
 
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I have a doubt regarding the example of page 26 (the one about 32K2-32G2):

32K2, elevation 1
32I2, elevation 0 + level 1 obstacle = total heigth of 1
32G2, elevation 2

As the obstacle is not at a lower total height than both units, the obstacle degrades the LOS. The LOS still exists, it is not blocked but it is degraded. Am I right?
 

Jeff Lewis

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The dilemma here is that there is not a lot of elevated terrain in HotP save for on Map 32, and even on that Map the situation in the example doesn't explicitly come up due to the nature of the terrain. This is a Core rule example here, and it's represented as best as it can be. In the example it is clear LOS to the target because the target is outside of the Light Jungle's one-hex shadow and because the Japanese 1-3-4 is at the same elevation as the top of the Light Jungle.
 
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Yes, this rule is more related to HotB. But according to your answer, if you say that the LOS is not degraded by the Light Jungle because as an obstacle it has the same total height than the Japanese, the rule should be more like: LOS traced through blocking/degrading terrain that is located at a lower or equal total height than both the attacker’s and the target’s hex elevation is not blocked/degraded.

If this were the case, two units with the same Elevation separated by one hex of flowers at the same Elevation would have clear LOS, while I think the LOS would be degraded by the flowers.

Sorry if I am a little painstaking regarding rules, but as I am the one who re-redacted the rules (before v4.0) in Spanish, I want to have all things very clear for the new release of the Spanish version of the rules that I am preparing.
 

Jeff Lewis

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Given the HotP terrain, the rule/example is irrelevant as it, in my looking at the maps, never happen.

In the example, though, it's from a level-2 to a level-1. It's not lower or equal to, as you suggest. And, further, your example with the flowers is incorrect, as the flowers would degrade it. Again, flowers isn't a great example as it isn't used very often.
 
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Thanks again for your answer. Yes, that is what I think, flowers at the same total height than both units, degrade the LOS. The problem comes with units at different heights. But I think I am missing something. I have considered that:
  • Elevation = altitude of the hex (1, 2 or 3 for hills, 0 for the rest)
  • Level = altitude of an obstacle over its own hex (as per TEC)
  • Total height of an obstacle = Elevation + Level
  • Total height of a unit = Elevation + 2 if it is on an upper level of a building
If these considerations are valid (probably this is my mistake), we have:
  • 32K2, elevation 1. Unit with a total height of 1
  • 32I2, elevation 0 + level 1 obstacle. Obstacle with a total height of 1
  • 32G2, elevation 2. Unit with a total height of 2
Here, from my point of view, the obstacle is not located at a lower total height than both units (one of the units it is at the same total height). Am I wrong? If the obstacle is not a lower total height than both units, then the rule "LOS traced through blocking/degrading terrain that is located at a lower total height than both the attacker’s and the target’s hex elevation is not blocked/degraded" does not apply.

I would understand that LOS is not degraded if the rule were more like "LOS traced through blocking/degrading terrain that is located at a lower elevation than both the attacker’s and the target’s hex elevation is not blocked/degraded".

I have a second doubt. Have the obstacles in a "shadowed" hex be considered (for degrading/blocking purposes)?

EDIT: Resolution. The rule says “LOS traced through blocking/degrading terrain that is located at a lower total height than both the attacker’s and the target’s hex elevation is not blocked/degraded”, but this doesn’t mean that LOS traced through blocking/degrading terrain that is not located at a lower total height than both the attacker’s and the target’s hex elevation (here in the example the top of the jungle is at the same height of unit in 32K2) is not blocked/degraded. If we apply that “Units in a hex higher in elevation than the total height of a blocking/degrading-terrain hex can see and fire over it into hexes at a lower elevation than the total height of said blocking—or degrading—terrain hex", as this case, the LOS is not degraded.
 
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Jeff Lewis

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Again, this rule is a Core rule. It is not germane to Heroes of the Pacific. We have one rulebook for HotP, not a Core rules and a Mod rules. There is no explicit situation where this rule can occur in HotP. The example is there as a nearest approximation, though technically if you drew a line from G2 to K2, it would be above I2, and LOS is not degraded in the example--as I think I've stated already. But seriously, you are overanalyzing a rule/situation that cannot exist in this module.

You are confusing elevation and level, too. If you are on a level -1 hex, your feet are even with the top of the trees of a Light Jungle on a level-0 or ground-level hex. The top of elevation of 1 is = the bottom of Level 1.

Obstacles or terrain in a "shadowed" hex are considered if they need to be or are germane to the LOS that is being checked.
 

Qwirz

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LOS traced from a higher hex to a lower one is:
BLOCKED by blocking/degrading terrain (or hexes) situated at a total height equal (or higher) to the higher hex height.
CLEAR if the intervening blocking/degrading terrain (or hex) total height is lower than the higher hex. EXC. LOS to hexes directly behind level 1 or 2 obstacles (or hexes) is ALWAYS blocked (they are BLIND hexes).
In no case it can be DEGRADED.
....I think I'm right...;)
 
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Thanks guys. I saw my error. I edit my previous post to clarify it. I think I have clear the concept of Elevation and Level. Probably I expressed wrong what I wanted to say as my language is not English.

LOS.jpg


The problem was that for me, the example of 32K2-32G2 is not related with the paragraph “LOS traced through blocking/degrading terrain that is located at a lower total height than both the attacker’s and the target’s hex elevation is not blocked/degraded”, but with the paragraph “Units in a hex higher in elevation than the total height of a blocking/degrading-terrain hex can see and fire over it into hexes at a lower elevation than the total height of said blocking—or degrading—terrain hex”. V4.1 is more rigorous in this example.

As Qwirz notes, these two sentences could be joined just to say “Blocking/degrading obstacles of less total height than one of the units do not block/degrade LOS”.

And finally, shadowed hexes are always below one of the units, so they never block/degrade. Thanks again!
 
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Jeff Lewis

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As Qwirz notes, these two sentences could be joined just to say “Blocking/degrading obstacles of less total height than one of the units do not block/degrade LOS”.

No. This is not the case. If the Japanese unit in the example was in J2 (ground-level), LOS would be degraded b/c of one-hex shadow.

Again, I can't stress this enough. It is impossible to create an example with the HotP components to represent this explicit core-rule situation. The approximation used in the manual is the best we could do, and was done because there may be expansions that have a map in which this situation is relevant, and the core rule needed to be in place.
 
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No. This is not the case. If the Japanese unit in the example was in J2 (ground-level), LOS would be degraded b/c of one-hex shadow.

Yes, I know. But in J2 would be blocked by the shadow effect. The senteces I wanted to join never talked about shadow effect (since that is other rule). If we want to have all the rules of LOS we have to apply several things. In summary, I think that it could be something like this:

To trace the LOS you don’t have to consider:
  • Blocking/reducing objects of the firing and target hexes.
  • Small pieces of terrain that extend partially from the firing or target hex into an adjacent hex.
  • Blocking/reducing obstacles at a lower total height than one of the units.
Taking in account the above, the LOS between two units is blocked if it crosses:
  • One blocking obstacle.
  • More than two reducing obstacles (in different hexes).
  • A hex with higher Elevation than the height of the top unit.
Furthermore, for units at different heights you have to consider also these three effects:
  • PLATEAU EFFECT: hills of same Elevation as the top unit block LOS.
  • SHADOW EFFECT: blocking/degrading obstacles of Level higher than 0 cast a one hex shadow to hexes of equal or lower height (downwards) that blocks the LOS. (Analogous for Hills).
  • TWO STORY BUILDING EFFECT: inside a two story building, units in adjacent hexes but at different levels cannot see.

The worst thing here is that my copy of HotP is not yet at my home! :arghh::arghh::arghh:
 
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No, it would be degraded. Light Jungle is degrading terrain.

I always thought that a shadowed hex was always blocked, regardless of the object that created (blocking or degrading) the shadow, as per "Level-1 and -2 blocking/degrading terrain casts a one-hex shadow that blocks LOS to units located directly behind them".
 

Jeff Lewis

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I always thought that a shadowed hex was always blocked, regardless of the object that created (blocking or degrading) the shadow, as per "Level-1 and -2 blocking/degrading terrain casts a one-hex shadow that blocks LOS to units located directly behind them".

It should read ". . . casts a one-hex shadow that blocks/degrades LOS . . ."

It's been amended for v4.1.

How can a terrain that degrades in one case block in another?
 
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It should read ". . . casts a one-hex shadow that blocks/degrades LOS . . ."

It's been amended for v4.1.

How can a terrain that degrades in one case block in another?

Until v4.1 the shadowed hex was was always blocked, regardless of the object that created (blocking or degrading) the shadow. Even in the great article of Line of Fire 6 called "The Non-flat Lands" regarding LOS it is clearly stated that degrading obstacles create a shadow that blocks LOS to units located directly behind them (example G).
 

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I always thought of this as a good and realistic rule. From a higher elevation the dense foliage of a lower orchard or light wood/jungle blocks LOS whereas their sparse tree trunks just degrade it from a lower level.
 
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