LoS - confirming my understanding of the rules

Discussion in 'LnLT Rule Questions' started by ChuckB, Oct 9, 2017.

  1. ChuckB

    ChuckB Member

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    LoS.png LoS.png

    Hi,

    Working on my understanding of the LoS rules. Let's see if I get this right:

    1. The LoS from all US units within the blue circle to the Japanese units in H8 would be degraded by the Light Jungle in hex H7. The US units in G3 (top left) and I3 both have a LoS to the Japanese units (albeit degraded) because the shadow created by the same-level hexes G4 and I4, respectively, only block their LoS to hexes G5, H5, and I5 but they have a LoS to all hexes south of these hexes.

    2. The LoS of the US unit labeled "A" would also be degraded but from the Light Jungle in hex I6; while the LoS shadow is regularly only one hex, the fact that unit is one hex away from I6 extends this shadow by one hex, therefore also affecting the LoS to the Japanese units in H8. Hex H7 does NOT affect unit A's LoS since it's only on one side of a hex spine between H7 and I7.

    3. The LoS of all the US units labeled "B" is not degraded, since they are on a higher level than the Level 1 Light Jungle in I6, thereby limiting the hex shadow of hex I6 to one hex, even though there are are two hexes between the units B and hex I6.
    Thanks!
     
    Itineranthobbyist likes this.
  2. Stéphane Tanguay

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    1) LOS to H8 from H5 is degraded twice (H6 and H7). LOS to H8 from G3, G4, I3 and I4 is degraded once (H7). Note that LOS from G3 and I3 to G6, H6 and I6 is blocked by the one-hex shadow of G5, H5 and I5. This is not the case for units in G4 and I4, which benefit from a clear slope

    2) LOS between the blocking hex in I5 and the degrading hex in J6 is considered degraded while LOS between H7 and I7 is considered clear (10.3.2). Thus, LOS from J6 to H8 is be degraded twice (J6 and I6).

    3) LOS from J4 to H8 would be degraded once by the one-hex degrading shadow of H7
     
  3. ChuckB

    ChuckB Member

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    Hi Stéphane,

    Thanks for your feedback, really appreciate it!

    1) It's hard to see on the screenshot but H5 is a level 1 hex, which is why I believe H6 does NOT add a level of degradation to the LoS from H5 to H8.

    2) You're right - I did not take the blocking hex I5 into account.

    3) You are again right - for whatever reason, I did not take H7 into account but the LoS goes through this hex.

    Oh - additional question: I know that LnLT uses the "silhouette" model but I assume that for degradation that does not play any role, meaning that I do not (for example for 3) above) have to see if there is in fact any piece of the palm trees touching the LoS, correct?
     
  4. Stéphane Tanguay

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    You are right. Suppose H7 was clear terrain; LOS from H5 to H8 would be clear thus H6 does not interfere. My bad. Note that H7 cast a two-hexes degrading shadow from H5

    No, I'm not :) Situation here is similar to the one with H5. The only interfering hex is I6, casting a two-hexes degrading shadow from J5 which engulf H8. LOS is degraded only once, per this shadow.

    Yes you have too. Note though that along hexspine with blocking/degrading therrain on both side, the LOS does not have to actually touch any symbol; those hexes are considered whole-hex terrain (see 10.3.2). Thus LOS from H6 to I7 is degraded along the H7-I6 hexspine
     
  5. MirabelleBenou

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    Hello ! Just to clarify an answer (English is not my native tongue, sorry :) ).

    When a LOS cross an hex with degrading terrain (light forest for example), if the LOS do not touch any silhouette, it's not degrading but clear ? I thought that the silhouette thing was only for clear terrain next to degrading one (with for example a tree palm extending from degrading to clear hex).

    Another one, I do not understand why the hex I6 is casting a two-hexes shadow from J5 ?

    Thanks :)
     
  6. Stéphane Tanguay

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    Excerpt from 10.1:
    One is added to the unit’s die-roll for every hex of degrading terrain its LOS passes through en route to the target unit’s hex. Note that the LOS must actually pass through a piece of the degrading terrain in the degrading-terrain hex. One is also added if it passes through the silhouette of degrading terrain that is in part of an otherwise open hex.

    BUT

    Excerpt from 10.3.2:
    When tracing LOS down hexsides, the adjacent hex terrain is considered whole-hex. LOS that is traced along a hexside with blocking/degrading terrain on one side is not blocked/degraded. LOS traced along a hexside with blocking/degrading terrain on both sides is blocked/degraded. LOS traced along a hexside that has blocking terrain on one side and degrading terrain on the other side is degraded.

    So, under the rules as they stand now, the answers is yes, it has to pass through a piece of degrading terrain to be degraded except if traced along a hexspine with Blocking/degrading or degrading/degrading terrain on its side.

    As for your second question, the relevant excerpt are under 10.3:
    Units in a hex at a level EQUAL TO the total obstacle height of a blocking/degrading- terrain hex can see and fire over it into hexes at a LOWER level than the total obstacle height of said blocking/ degrading terrain hex; but, Level-1, -2 and -3 blocking/degrading terrain obstacles cast a one-hex shadow that blocks/degrades LOS to units located directly behind them.

    In addition, the number of hexes in between the firer’s hex and the hex containing the obstacle (not counting each) is added to the length of the cast shadow.

    J5 is located in a hex at a level (level 1 hill) equal to the total obstacle height in I6 (level 1 light jungle on a level 0 hex, for a total height of 1) AND at two hexes from said obstacle, thus casting a two hexes shadow from I6 (degrading shadow, since Light Jungle is a degrading obstacle)
     
    #6 Stéphane Tanguay, Oct 17, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
  7. TerryB

    TerryB Member

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    When I was getting started I created this sheet which helped me understand hights and shadows. Not sure if it's 100% up to date but maybe it will help...

    LOS Examples

    I'll embed the image when its been aproved.
     
  8. Keith T

    Keith T Member

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    Thank you TerryB
     
  9. MirabelleBenou

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    Thanks everyone :)
     
  10. Stéphane Tanguay

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    Great diagram! May I suggest that you reduce the height obstacle so that the top of said obstacle on a level 0 hex is the same height as e level one hex? This way, it would even better illustrate the various cases.

    Could I get your last name, so has to give propre credit if I ever reuse it in this or other forums?
     
  11. TerryB

    TerryB Member

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    Hi Stéphane,

    Nice suggestion. As it was for personal consumption I didn't tidy it up too much. But your prompting got me to changing it, and I found a second page :blackeye: I can't do much more about the formatting but I think no with your suggestion its pretty clear.

    Here are the links to the new verions:

    Page 1
    Page 2

    Feel free to use as you see fit.

    Happy Gaming
    Terry BAILEY
     
  12. Barthheart

    Barthheart Moderator
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    These are great Terry. Well done and thanks for sharing.
     
  13. Stéphane Tanguay

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    Very useful Terry! Note that the last diagram on page 2 is actually a specific case of the next-to-last diagram of page 1 but it is worth mentionning them separately, as they are presented this way in the rulebook.
     
  14. Ben2013

    Ben2013 Member

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    I note that this is a very old post but can someone kindly provide me the link to these LOS diagrams? Thank you.
     
  15. Ben2013

    Ben2013 Member

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    Thanks to Stephane who just sent this to me and thanks too Terry for producing and sharing it!
     
  16. Captain Darling

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    Hi All,

    The way I read the rules G3 and I3 do not have a LOS to H8 (going by the initial picture as I can’t access links 1 & 2);

    Take G3 to H8 example this is how I read the hexes;

    H8 is level 0
    G6, H6 and H7 are Level 0 with -1 level degrading terrain hexes
    G5 and H5 are level -1 hills with a slope
    G4 and H4 are level -2 hills with a slope
    G3 is level -2 flat hill top

    So as G3 is the same level as G4 and H4 and since it’s not at a crest hex with a slope it’s blocked to H8 i.e. you can’t look in a ‘level’ line at level -2 for a hex and then suddenly start looking down the slope toward level 0 it needs to be a continuous straight line not a bent one.

    If G3 was level -3 then you’d be looking down a continual slope and can start to calculate degrading terrain etc but as it stands G3 can’t see past G4 and H4.

    I’ve been wrong (many times) before but that’s how we’d play that example.

    Cheers!

    Added a 'diagram' of my thoughts on this...

    [​IMG]
     
    #16 Captain Darling, Feb 28, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
  17. Jeff Lewis

    Jeff Lewis Editor
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    LOS from G3 to H8 is degraded once by H7. (Profile views can be good, but since it's not the "map view" you need to adjust things just a tad and measure from what would be considered "eye level" not literal ground level (and I know that that is arbitrary, but hear me out) and consider that the G4/G5 Hills slope would not be a 90-degree edge like it is portrayed above, as the downslope has begun, and then your line would better present the case at hand and demonstrate the LOS between the two hexes and the degradation of LOS by H7.
     

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