Final v4.1 doubts

[Carlos S. Olivares Pérez]

May somebody kindly answer some of my doubts? Thanks in advance.

1.6 It seems that now when a SMC carries a Satchel Charge, the Satchel FP is divided by two (in v3.1, Molotov and Satchel did not have this penalty: “Satchel charge attacks do not receive any other OFT Attacking Unit's Die Roll Modifications, nor is their Firepower halved when used by an eligible SMC”). Can somebody confirm that now the FP is divided? Does this also apply to Molotov Cocktails?

1.7 Pivoting has a +1 as the rulebook says, or +2 as the player aid of HotP says? What does the player aid of Heroes of Normandy say?

3.0 "Units in terrain with a positive Target Modifier (TM), including those with hexside terrain like Walls, subtract two from their dieroll". Is this regardless where all the enemy units are? For instance, do you have the -2 on 15K6 with enemy units on 15J6.

4.0 "Unless the Leader is in the Building and chooses to activate the hex above or below himself". The word "chooses" has confused me. It seems that the Leader has to make an election ("activate above/below" or "activate around"). If a Leader is in the ground level of a Building and chooses to activate the hex above him, does he still activate the six hexes around him on the ground floor? In other words, may the sentence be read as "Unless the Leader is in the Building and chooses to activate also the hex above or below himself"?

5.3 If a unit picks up a SW during its Operation Phase is put under a Move marker (as this have a cost of 2 MPs)? Note that if the unit is put under Moved, it will have a modifier on the DFT.

5.3 May the OF also affect units picking up SWs? In other words, may a unit that has picked up a SW suffer two OF?

10.1 "Units in open-type terrain containing a vehicle do not have to be spotted". I guess this is also applied to a hex with wrecks.

14.3 “Shaken vehicles lose their Acquiring and Target Acquisition markers”. I think that this applies to all ordnance (SW, WT…).

14.3 “A firing unit under an Acquiring marker does NOT need to spot (10.1) a target with the same-lettered Acquisition marker”. So, can we say “A hex an Acquisition marker is spotted”.

16.2 Should “The unit on top of a vehicle can fire in a separate impulse from the vehicle’s movement or AM” be “A unit on top of a vehicle can fire in a separate impulse from the vehicle’s movement or AM or the use of its MGs”?

18.0 “Indirect fire and Mortar targets in a Hill hex (any level) or in a hex with a Wall hexside do not receive a positive TM”. Maybe this should also be applied to Bocages, Roadblocks, Trenches and Barricades.

18.0 "Indirect fire such as off-board Artillery and Mortar attacks always attack all levels of a Building and, in hexes containing a Bunker or Cave". As mortars can also make Direct Fire, this should be also noted for Mortar Direct Fire "Direct Fire done by mortar attacks always all levels of a Building...". I think that mortar fire (direct or indirect) and OBA attack both Vehicles and non-Vehicles units in their attacks, but I do not find this in the rules.

18.1 “... except the TM for Walls and Hills”. Maybe this should also be applied to Bocage, Roadblocks, Trenches and Barricades.

18.1 “The hex under an onboard Mortar FFE marker is considered degrading terrain for LOS purposes (apply DFT and OFT modifiers)”. Only for LOS? When it is said “apply DFT and OFT modifiers” it seems that it is not only for LOS but also for attacks.

20.2 “Onboard Mortars can also place Starshells, but a GO Leader or Scout must call-in the fire”. It seems that mortars only can only fire starshells via indirect fire. Am I right?

20.2 “Onboard Mortars can also place Starshells, but a GO Leader or Scout must call-in the fire”. I suppose that the mortar has to do the roll to fire the starshell, but this is not stated. Am I right?

21.1 "As a terrain feature, Bunkers do not block LOS, but for spotting purposes, a Bunker is considered blocking terrain". So even if a want to spot units surrounding the bunker (not inside), the Spotting Check to beat is a 3. Or to spot the units surrounding the bunker, the Spotting Check is again the terrain the bunker? I guess the same happens to caves.

 

[David Heath]

Hi Carlos

We are getting Heroes of Normandy out the door and Heroes of Nam coming right behind it, so it might be a bit before Jeff can answer any questions here. If any LnLT fans know the answers please feel free to answer Carlos.

David

 

[Keith T]

I'll give a shot to answering some of your questions...

1.6 SMC will half the FP of the Satchel charge and Molotov Cocktails. So the Fire power is halved.
1.7 Pivoting, in HotP - it's +2 since it is in the jungle. (IMHO), So my guess the player aid for HoN is +1.

 

[Qwirz]

Hi Carlos

We are getting Heroes of Normandy out the door and Heroes of Nam coming right behind it, so it might be a bit before Jeff can answer any questions here. If any LnLT fans know the answers please feel free to answer Carlos.

David

Hi Carlos!
I give mine here based on HotP
NRBH so I can't give you precise reference, but if you need, I will.

SC (and FT) are never halved. IIRC in new rules not even captured SW are halved.

SW can be picked up by a MOVING unit paying an ADDITIONAL 2 MPs. It looks like you can pick up weapons after entering new hexes. Actually if you already have a SW in your starting hex you'd better pick it up in rally phase. It could happen a unit finds itself in a hex with a SW during operation (for ex if another possessing unit is eliminated). If it spends just the 2 MP IMHO it is not actually a moving unit. For ex OF is triggered by units ENTERING new hex and they can be fired upon a number of times equal to the MP spent to ENTER the hex. I think pickin up a SW does not trigger OF. I would mark a unit which just picks up a weapon, without moving in new hexes, with an Ops Complete. No other instance in LnL allows to expend MPs standing in a hex without moving (right?). So perhaps being a new addition, it needs some refining. Can a unit Assault Moving spend the 2 MPs to pick up a weapon and then fire? Can it be targeted by OF? Heroes should....

Bunkers are separate hex and units in them must be spotted SEPARATELY. So for units outside you should use the hex terrain.

Shaken units lose acquiring. I can't remember if it is stated in rules or I have always played this so.

Acquired targets: I've always played they are automtically spotted just for the acquiring unit.

It looks like Starshell can be fired only if leader directed.

Terrain under FFE markers are degrading for LOS and fire, not for Spotting

That's all for now. I'll step in again whit RB references.
Cheers

Ruben

 

[Carlos S. Olivares Pérez]

Thanks, guys.

I would mark a unit which just picks up a weapon, without moving in new hexes, with an Ops Complete. No other instance in LnL allows to expend MPs standing in a hex without moving (right?)

1.7 WTs that only pivot in its hex, are marked with Moved.

Acquired targets: I've always played they are automtically spotted just for the acquiring unit.

10.1 If a hex is Spotted is Spotted for all units.

 

[Stéphane Tanguay]

1.6 With the RAW as written, it does seems that a SC would be halved when used by a SMC.In the previous editions though, there was a sentence that specifically mentionned that SC was never halved. This sentence is no longer present BUT the text still says that no other DFT Attacking Unit modifier is applied SO if the halving is mentionned on the DFT, you would not have to halve the SC. I guess we'll have to see the DFT . As for Molotov Cocktail, I suppose this will be covered in the appropriate module rules.

1.7 Until we see the OFT, I would venture that pivoting in your impulse is +1 and pivoting for OF is +2 (+1 for pivoting and +1 for doing it while OFiring). This was introduce to correct the apparent discrepancy in the previous editions where WT could not pivot AND fire in their own impulse but could do so while OFiring.

3.0 No. The text mention hexside terrain. There is no hexside terrain between 15J6 and 15K6. The idea is that if all possible fire from enemy unit would have to cross protective hexside terrain such as wall or bocage, the the unit would benefit from the bonus.

4.0 The "Unless the Leader is in the Building and chooses to activate the hex above or below himself" part is there to allow a leader to not ONLY activate the units on the same level as himself, as the first part of the sentence mention so yes, a leader on the ground level of a Multi-story building could activate all adjacent hexes AND the the hex above him.

5.3 Notice that only moving units can pick up a SW during the Operation phase so yes, it would be considered as a moving unit and be put under a Move marker. That being said, why not pick it in the Rally phase in the first place ?

5.3 NO, only unit that enter a new hex, pivot into hex or load/unload can be the subject of OF

10.1 I guess so. It is pretty simple to figure out where the ennemy is when the only hiding place in a 50-meter hex is a wreck ;-).

14.3 Yes

14.3 NO, we can't say that. This unit is spotted only for the acquiring unit

16.2 Should ? No. Could ? Yes but the general concept is that vehicle and infantry can act separately. I think this sentece was added only to make sure that nobody would think that infantry on top of a vehicle can ONLY fire in the tank movement

18.0 Maybe and one can only assume that this will be mentionned in the module-related rules.

18.0 Notice that section 18.0 as a whole is titled Indirect fire so it cover mortar firing directly or indirectly. And yes, they do affect both vehicle and non-vehicle units in a hex. Actually, they attack whole hexes, not specific target in hex

18.1 Maybe and one can only assume that this will be mentionned in the module-related rules.

18.1 Yes, it it applied for attack

20.2 Yes

20.2 . Not in the RAW. What would be the interest of using a leader AND a mortar to do exactly what the leader could do by himself ?

21.1 The bunker does not "modify" the surrounding terrain so you would spot units in surrounding terrain based on said terrain

 

[Stéphane Tanguay]

Thanks, guys.

10.1 If a hex is Spotted is Spotted for all units.

Yes but here, the unit is spotted, not the hex

 

[Carlos S. Olivares Pérez]

Thanks, Tanguay (Tanguay means in Spanish "So Cool"). Here are some comments to your answers.

1.6 With the RAW as written, it does seems that a SC would be halved when used by a SMC.In the previous editions though, there was a sentence that specifically mentionned that SC was never halved. This sentence is no longer present BUT the text still says that no other DFT Attacking Unit modifier is applied SO if the halving is mentionned on the DFT, you would not have to halve the SC. I guess we'll have to see the DFT . As for Molotov Cocktail, I suppose this will be covered in the appropriate module rules.

I agree with you. The point is that I do not consider the halving of the Satchel as DFT modifier (it does not appear on the DFT modifiers table), but as a PORTAGE modifier. Probably, the essence of the rule is that some weapons, as the Satchel or Flamethrower, never are halved because the destructive power they have does not depend on whether they are carried by a single man or by a group of five.

1.7 Until we see the OFT, I would venture that pivoting in your impulse is +1 and pivoting for OF is +2 (+1 for pivoting and +1 for doing it while OFiring). This was introduce to correct the apparent discrepancy in the previous editions where WT could not pivot AND fire in their own impulse but could do so while OFiring.

I do not think that the OF should have its own modifiers. The OF is like any other attack. You don’t have modifiers when doing an OF with your BAR, so I would venture that you should have a modifier of +1 for the “pivoting”, but no another modifier because that pivoting was made to OF.

5.3 Notice that only moving units can pick up a SW during the Operation phase so yes, it would be considered as a moving unit and be put under a Move marker. That being said, why not pick it in the Rally phase in the first place ?

I agree with you, but it is strange that for picking up a SW the unit has to be in move, and that a non-moving unit cannot pick it up. As you said, the normal thing would be to pick up the SW on the Rally Phase, but this is the war, sometimes you don’t have time to think.

14.3 NO, we can't say that. This unit is spotted only for the acquiring unit

But from 10.1 "Hexes, rather than units, are spotted, so if one unit in a hex is spotted, all units in the hex
are spotted. (...) Once a hex is spotted, it is spotted for all friendly units during the turn".

18.0 Notice that section 18.0 as a whole is titled Indirect fire so it cover mortar firing directly or indirectly. And yes, they do affect both vehicle and non-vehicle units in a hex. Actually, they attack whole hexes, not specific target in hex

This generates me another doubt. I have it clear when the Mortar is a Weapons Team, but if the Mortar is a SW (as the Japanese), what happens when it attacks as a part of a multi attacking action (MMC + MMC + MMC with Mortar)? Does the attack affects to the whole hex?

20.2 . Not in the RAW. What would be the interest of using a leader AND a mortar to do exactly what the leader could do by himself ?

My mistake, I wanted to say that the Leader must do the roll to fire the starshell. When the rules say “Onboard Mortars can also place Starshells, but a GO Leader or Scout must call-in the fire”, the phrase “call-in the fire” means that the Leader makes the roll. Am I right?

 

[Stéphane Tanguay]

Thanks, Tanguay (Tanguay means in Spanish "So Cool").

Ah but Stéphane is my first name and Tanguay is my family name

Probably, the essence of the rule is that some weapons, as the Satchel or Flamethrower, never are halved because the destructive power they have does not depend on whether they are carried by a single man or by a group of five.

I think they are not halved because, in essence, you don't need help to feed them ammunitions like MG or bazooka.

I do not think that the OF should have its own modifiers. The OF is like any other attack. You don’t have modifiers when doing an OF with your BAR, so I would venture that you should have a modifier of +1 for the “pivoting”, but no another modifier because that pivoting was made to OF.

There was always a modifier (+2) for OF with ordnance weapons. The strange thing at that time was that WT could pivot AND OF, while the same WT could only pivot in it's own impulse. Now both can pivot and fire, with a modifier that is bigger with OF because it's hard erto OF at a speeding vehicle that was out of your arc of fire.

I agree with you, but it is strange that for picking up a SW the unit has to be in move, and that a non-moving unit cannot pick it up. As you said, the normal thing would be to pick up the SW on the Rally Phase, but this is the war, sometimes you don’t have time to think.

I'm not saying they can't pick it up, I'm just saying that if they do so in the operation phase, they are marked with a MOVE counter

But from 10.1 "Hexes, rather than units, are spotted, so if one unit in a hex is spotted, all units in the hex are spotted. (...) Once a hex is spotted, it is spotted for all friendly units during the turn".

Notice that the rules don't say the acquired unit is spotted, just that the acquiring unit does not need to spot the acquired unit.

This generates me another doubt. I have it clear when the Mortar is a Weapons Team, but if the Mortar is a SW (as the Japanese), what happens when it attacks as a part of a multi attacking action (MMC + MMC + MMC with Mortar)? Does the attack affects to the whole hex?

No, those small mortars compliment regular DFT attacks so they would target either a vehicle or all non-vehicle units in the hex.

My mistake, I wanted to say that the Leader must do the roll to fire the starshell. When the rules say “Onboard Mortars can also place Starshells, but a GO Leader or Scout must call-in the fire”, the phrase “call-in the fire” means that the Leader makes the roll. Am I right?

No. What would be the advantage to use an onboard mortar to fire a starshell if you need to roll with a leader and mark him Ops Complete ? Might as well only use the leader and save the mortar for another use.

 

[Pascal]

Hello, first of all, I'm not a native english, so sorry for my degraded language.
I have a doubt with the first picture of 10.3.2 page 30. LOS is said blocked if traced along the hexside between E3/F3.
But the LOS crosses none of the two buildings sihouette. So, according to this new chapter, a LOS along this hexside should be blocked, and another LOS traced between the two buildings in hex E3/F3 but not along the hexside should be clear!
I think the example should be OK with a blocking terrain filling the whole hex: smoke or terrain marker described in 10.5 from the V3 rules: "When determinig Line of Sight (LOS), consider the counter to fill the entire hex.".
In the V4.1 rules, this chapter is now included in 10.4, but perhaps a little too "streamlined".
I hope these words are understandable, and thanks for reading, Pascal.

 

[Stéphane Tanguay]

I have a doubt with the first picture of 10.3.2 page 30. LOS is said blocked if traced along the hexside between E3/F3.
But the LOS crosses none of the two buildings sihouette. So, according to this new chapter, a LOS along this hexside should be blocked, and another LOS traced between the two buildings in hex E3/F3 but not along the hexside should be clear!

Hi Pascal ! Yes, in this example, the LOS between the two buildings IS blocked when traced along the hexside, even if not touching the buildings while LOS not traced along the hexside (and not touching the buildings) would be clear. Jeff explained his reasonning elsewhere in this forum.

 

[Jeff Lewis]

Hi Pascal ! Yes, in this example, the LOS between the two buildings IS blocked when traced along the hexside, even if not touching the buildings while LOS not traced along the hexside (and not touching the buildings) would be clear. Jeff explained his reasonning elsewhere in this forum.

Like Stephane said, I've explained the reasoning on this forum and on CSW--at length. And again, if you disagree with a rule, hey, don't use it. As long as you and your opponent agree, do whatever you like. We've opened a House Rule section on this forum for anyone who would like to share what they think increases their enjoyment of the game.

 

[Pascal]

Thank you for your quick answer.
I enjoy the new V4.1 rules over V3: prefer the cartoonish look, easier to learn/understand.
But this LOS exception is disappointing. And not only for me, after reading the cosimworld discuss.
As you said, if I dislike a rule, I can forget it.
It seems more appropriate for World at war because LOS is stopped by blocking hex, not the silhouette.
Regards, Pascal.

 

[Jeff Lewis]

Thank you for your quick answer.
I enjoy the new V4.1 rules over V3: prefer the cartoonish look, easier to learn/understand.
But this LOS exception is disappointing. And not only for me, after reading the cosimworld discuss.
As you said, if I dislike a rule, I can forget it.
It seems more appropriate for World at war because LOS is stopped by blocking hex, not the silhouette.
Regards, Pascal.

,
As I've written at length, if fire is allowed down the hexsides b/tw two building hexes, movement has to be allowed as well, and that opens a big nasty can of worms of rules writing, with myriad permutations, for spotting, stacking, Op Fire, MP-costs, DFT and OFT modifiers. The diagonal exception b/tw them remains as 10 years of modules and scenarios have been designed with it allowed.

 

[Warren Smith]

,
As I've written at length, if fire is allowed down the hexsides b/tw two building hexes, movement has to be allowed as well, and that opens a big nasty can of worms of rules writing, with myriad permutations, for spotting, stacking, Op Fire, MP-costs, DFT and OFT modifiers. The diagonal exception b/tw them remains as 10 years of modules and scenarios have been designed with it allowed.

Can you link the previous posts in where this is discussed? I came here to post this very question and see the answer but would like to try and understand why.

Thanks for any help.

 

[Jeff Lewis]

Can you link the previous posts in where this is discussed? I came here to post this very question and see the answer but would like to try and understand why.

Thanks for any help.

Here is my main response from a CSW thread:

We put a lot of effort in to making a better presentation of the LOS rules, as there were even experienced players who had different (if slight) interpretations of them. Making changes to a rules set that is 10 years old is not as simple as it seems. You have to take in to consideration that over a dozen modules and scores of scenarios have been tested and balanced according to those rules. How is changing those rules going to affect the scenarios? It would be an enormous task to retest every scenario ever made to be in accordance with a drastic rule change. And I think going to whole-hex terrain in all circumstances would be a drastic change.
Before the v4.1 rules there wasn't even a mention of LOS down hexsides except in an errata. Adding it with an example made obvious sense; and it is 10.3.2. This, Mike, is not a contradiction to 10.3 but an exception. I purposely chose the two-Building example as it was a forum topic years ago. Many want to be able to fire and even move through the space in between the Buildings. It's there, why not? they say. I get it. I see it. But if you allow fire, then you have to allow movement. It's a big can of worms you end up opening . . . If you allow movement you are, in a sense, creating a new place for units to exist, that being between hexes. Do you only allow this with Buildings? What are the stacking limitations there? What about Op Fire? Or do the units just slide through (at some determined MP cost) to the hex the other side, like in Chutes & Ladders? The simple solution is to go whole-hex for LOS along hexsides. Yes, I know there are diagonal circumstances that allow fire through the space in the Buildings, but with that I'm back to the 10-year-old rule thing: Am I going to mess with past balance if I change it?
So LOS is center dot to center dot . . . Use a string, straight-edge, whatever (I use a ruler, and the X-maps make it even easier to see/check), it is quite simple to determine if your LOS crosses inhibiting terrain; and there's the along-hexside exception. And it doesn't mess with the past.