Spotting & LOS within walls.

[Tony Bravo]

Take a look at the photo below. I have a question with regards to both LOS and spotting.

So my understanding of LOS is that in the image above, LOS is not blocked as walls don't "block LOS to a hex in which the Wall forms a hexside". That's the part I get. No commentary need on that.

The part I don't get (and have not found clarification in the rules) is whether or not the American unit in 15K6 is considered spotted. Yes the American unit is in open ground (so he would be automatically spotted), but a wall in general is blocking terrain and has a +1 Target Modifier. So I would think that the German unit in 15M7 would need to spot the unit first by either making a spotting attempt and rolling a 1 or 2 or the unit would have to wait for the Americans the either move out of that hex or fire.

Just because the Americans are behind the wall and have LOS to the Germans doesn't mean they are readily seen.

Here is my thought process as why I think the Germans need to spot the Americans.

If we look at the image below (same units, just moved over two hexes each),

The Germans LOS from 15K7 to the Americans in 15I6 is not blocked from. LOS is clear. However, because the building in 15I6 is considered blocking terrain, the German unit needs to spot the unit in the blocking terrain first or wait for the Americans to move or fire before becoming spotted. The building is considered blocking terrain and has a positive (+4) terrain modifier.

I remember reading somewhere that the reason why we need to spot for units in a building is because the units may be "hiding" within it and don't necessarily keep their heads out the window waiting to receive enemy fire.

If the case above is true, then why would the Americans in my first example be walking around with their heads over the wall waiting for enemy fire? Wouldn't they be hiding and if they are spotted by the enemy, then they have fire drawn upon them?

So based on both my examples above, I believe that in the first example, the German unit would need to spot the American in the clear hex. My thought is mainly due to the fact that even though 15K6 is open hex, the wall give the open hex a +1 terrain modifier and walls in general are considered "Blocking" terrain types.

Thoughts?

 

[Stéphane Tanguay]

This is specifically true for bocage only, not for wall, even though both are hexside terrains with a positive TM (thus granting a +2 to rally if all possible fire have to cross a bocage/wall hexside before affecting the target adjacent to it).

 

[CrushRoller]

In the first example LOS is clear and the unit is in open ground (the Wall has "per level height", here it is level-0, in contrast to Bocage which is height-1) , so the unit is spotted.

 

[Tony Bravo]

In the first example LOS is clear and the unit is in open ground (the Wall has "per level height", here it is level-0, in contrast to Bocage which is height-1) , so the unit is spotted.

Okay, I think that's what explains it to me. I didn't take into account the obstacle height of the blocking terrain when considering the wall as blocking terrain. Thanks

 

[Norm]

My understanding is that Tony Bravo is correct in his example. The American unit is behind blocking terrain, LOS is not blocked, but its still needs to be spotted in the same way as his follow up example of a unit is a building needs to be spotted - it is only hedges that avoid this..

The three hex side terrains (hedge, wall and bocage) have slight differences. On the terrain chart, the notes for hedge are very specific and are specifically and carefully not replicated in full for the wall. The differences are that Hedges simply do not block LOS to a unit that is immediately behind the hex, period, regardless of where the firer is, while the wall does block LOS unless the firer is adjacent (i.e. on the other side the wall) or firing down a walled hexside. note the exception says "when traced FROM a hex through a wall that forms one of the hex's sides (sic of the target) or when firing along a wall" in effect the exception is talking about immediacy to the target - adjacent or down a hex side.

Bocage is just like a wall, but also blocks when looking down a hexside. The Bocage rule seems more specific, but it is just better explained in the module than the wall rule is in the general rules and seems to be offering something more by implication, but from a LOS perspective, it is only offering additional blocking protection from 'down' the hexisde.

I may be wrong on this, but it is the way that I have always played - perhaps this needs a Jeff Lewis confirmation one way or the other.​

 

[Barthheart]

Norm, Stephane is correct. Units in an open hex behind a wall or hedge are spotted. Units in an open hex behind bocage need to be spotted.

 

[Norm]

Doh, I better start playing this thing properly
I’m surprised V5 (or 4.1 for that matter) didn’t cover this in more detail. Sorry for throwing everyone off track.
Thanks. Norm.

 

[Stéphane Tanguay]

What I was really surprised to discover about hedges is that this terrain negates movement modifier against direct fire traced across Hedge hexside (although this part is missing in HOTM hedge description).

 

[David Heath]

I may be wrong on this, but it is the way that I have always played - perhaps this needs a Jeff Lewis confirmation one way or the other.​

Just so everyone knows Jeff Lewis is no longer with LnLP and has moved on. We wish Jeff the best in his future adventures. Devin Heinle is now in-charge of the LnLT series along with Stephane Tanguay, Ralph Ferrari, and myself.