john connor
Member
Here they come. I've got a (manually ordered) bombardment on the front of the Italians, and A. 1 RTR are closing fast, in light rain, through the pitch-black desert night....
CO2 BEDA FOMM Quick AAR
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john connor
Member
I have the whole column being bombarded. A.1RTR have opened fire. No losses yet. Other tanks are racing to the scene.
john connor
Member
Very much enjoying your AAR Pete, especially as I have played it now, and understand, at least a little the difficulties present from both sides perspective.
Your asking a lot for badly trained and led men, who have been on the move or under fire all day, to pull off a manoeuvre like that, especially as their Intel will indicate that there is a substantial force out in that direction.
Then from there they will still have to work their way back towards the main road to get to the exit point, and they only have just over 24 hours to pull it off.
It would be very interesting to watch this scenario, having substituted the Italian forces for the same number and type of 1941 German units, to see what difference it makes.
Even though there are a substantial number of Axis units in this scenario, they trickle in fairly slowly over the course of the first few days, and that’s an incredibly long road to march down to get to the south of the map, so by the time they have massed enough forces ready to attack, for a decisive breakthrough they have already lost a substantial number piecemeal the day before.
I'm on my first day of the second run through of this scenario playing as Axis. This time trying to force a gap through on the main road, and I’m not finding it easy at all.
Would you object to me posting some pictures of my predicament here, or would you rather I start another thread?
Your asking a lot for badly trained and led men, who have been on the move or under fire all day, to pull off a manoeuvre like that, especially as their Intel will indicate that there is a substantial force out in that direction.
Then from there they will still have to work their way back towards the main road to get to the exit point, and they only have just over 24 hours to pull it off.
It would be very interesting to watch this scenario, having substituted the Italian forces for the same number and type of 1941 German units, to see what difference it makes.
Even though there are a substantial number of Axis units in this scenario, they trickle in fairly slowly over the course of the first few days, and that’s an incredibly long road to march down to get to the south of the map, so by the time they have massed enough forces ready to attack, for a decisive breakthrough they have already lost a substantial number piecemeal the day before.
I'm on my first day of the second run through of this scenario playing as Axis. This time trying to force a gap through on the main road, and I’m not finding it easy at all.
Would you object to me posting some pictures of my predicament here, or would you rather I start another thread?
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john connor
Member
Post here, Daz! Of course. Be interesting. Maybe I was just lucky when I ran it through full speed as Axis, because they just marched straight down the road and off the map, passing between the two occupied high points with objectives for the Allies.
Yes, it would be asking too much for a huge flanking manoeuvre, and it didn't happen historically. I was half-joking really. But I would like for there to be an option for the AI to somehow 'consider' such things. After I'm finished here I will put together a scenario full of (a) 100% maxed out fully rested Italians, then (b) a wider spread of linked Exit objectives. See what happens.
Meanwhile, this little scrap that's shaping up is quite exciting. the most thrilling thing that's happened so far.
Peter
Yes, it would be asking too much for a huge flanking manoeuvre, and it didn't happen historically. I was half-joking really. But I would like for there to be an option for the AI to somehow 'consider' such things. After I'm finished here I will put together a scenario full of (a) 100% maxed out fully rested Italians, then (b) a wider spread of linked Exit objectives. See what happens.
Meanwhile, this little scrap that's shaping up is quite exciting. the most thrilling thing that's happened so far.
Peter
john connor
Member
john connor
Member
3.16. The attack markers have been reached.
2 enemy units give in.
I drag the attack markers for all my units a little deeper.
Observe the mad route 7 Hussars has come up with. That's because I was lazy. I will plan the attack again, placing the FUP where the main line units already are positioned.
2 enemy units give in.
I drag the attack markers for all my units a little deeper.
Observe the mad route 7 Hussars has come up with. That's because I was lazy. I will plan the attack again, placing the FUP where the main line units already are positioned.
john connor
Member
john connor
Member
Almost dawn (6am) and the target area has been cleared.
With counters removed it shows a grim picture for the Axis, though it seems we've so far only destroyed around 20% of their force.
With counters removed it shows a grim picture for the Axis, though it seems we've so far only destroyed around 20% of their force.
Sorry Peter, I've been busy the last few days.
I accidentally overwrite the save I was going to post with a miss click as well.
Suffice to say the Allied AI was very aggressive in the game I was playing, and quickly attacked my column on the main highway from east and west simultaneously.
The Italian infantry Coy's are like rice paper and quickly began to dissolve.
I have decided to stop playing though until the Intel bug has been fixed as I find it very irritating, and also had a Base dissolve on me for no reason.
The log for it was saying it was taking casualties, yet the base and its supply lines were nowhere near any enemy, as this was still way in the north of the map.
Like you say there are still a number of bugs that need sorting out and I'm sure Dave is rushed of his feet at the moment sorting them out, so will wait a week or two before loading this one up again.
Then once the Intel bug is fixed do a slow methodical run, reporting on every bug to help with squashing what's left.
I accidentally overwrite the save I was going to post with a miss click as well.
Suffice to say the Allied AI was very aggressive in the game I was playing, and quickly attacked my column on the main highway from east and west simultaneously.
The Italian infantry Coy's are like rice paper and quickly began to dissolve.
I have decided to stop playing though until the Intel bug has been fixed as I find it very irritating, and also had a Base dissolve on me for no reason.
The log for it was saying it was taking casualties, yet the base and its supply lines were nowhere near any enemy, as this was still way in the north of the map.
Like you say there are still a number of bugs that need sorting out and I'm sure Dave is rushed of his feet at the moment sorting them out, so will wait a week or two before loading this one up again.
Then once the Intel bug is fixed do a slow methodical run, reporting on every bug to help with squashing what's left.
john connor
Member
I'm waiting for the next build to continue.
john connor
Member
Next build in, but it seems a little problematic at the moment (I opened it up and started but had a lot of CTDs when using the new buttons), so maybe I'll wait for a hotfix to continue...
Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor
Panther Games Designer
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The only buttons with a CTD are the 1TV and 1CP. So you should be right if you avoid these.
john connor
Member
Well, I tried, Dave, and avoided those buttons ok, but I'm afraid I ran into so many other CTDs that it just became a pain. I saved and sent one to you. But there were at least 2 others that I didn't get to save before and thus would have to try to replicate. Seems very prone to CTD this build. Will wait for next build!
CTDs aside the new layout is a huge improvement and all those little irritating things (mouse imprecise etc, intel) have been fixed. One step forward, one step back. I feel for you! Hope you can get on top of it as it's looking so tempting, but just hard to play at the moment.
Peter
CTDs aside the new layout is a huge improvement and all those little irritating things (mouse imprecise etc, intel) have been fixed. One step forward, one step back. I feel for you! Hope you can get on top of it as it's looking so tempting, but just hard to play at the moment.
Peter
john connor
Member
Well, I couldn't resist pressing on, despite CTDs every few minutes, in different circumstances each time. I saved a lot! And got bored. Sorry, but in the stock scenario the Italians (as AI) do nothing. They bunch up once they get stuck, they don't probe, they don't concentrate. They just wait to be killed. I'm not sure what kind of result I will get, but it's too dull to press on, because the AI is doing nothing. If I stand back and let them do nothing I'll get a draw. If I mount attacks and kill them I'll get a big win, probably, as others have.
This frustration with the AI bugs me, because the AI is THE thing with this game, the reason I play it. So. I had to start tampering to see if the objectives etc would make a difference. And - thank God!! - they did. So, middle of day 2 from an altered scenario below:
As you see, during the night of day 1 the AI has probed holes and launched 3 separate lines of attack, 2 of which have run aground, but the main thrust has required....wait for it....some action from me to get close to stopping it. I've had to move units around, use reserves, counter threats etc. It's been a much better game and - and this is key - STILL plays historically. Because historically the Axis didn't just sit there and do nothing. This was a really tough fight for the Allies, and it should be possible for the AI to make it that way for you. Now I'm not sure if I will win playing at full speed and not being too careful. Or even being careful. I think I will win, but that's probably because so far I haven't fine-tuned the Allies objectives, only the Axis. But already it's restoring my faith in the AI.
But this has made me think about the whole AI thing, so now I've posted a question to Dave about how it works, form the point of view of scenario making.
Meanwhile, I'll fine tune things with this one then post the scenario file, in case anyone wants a better fight out of it.
This frustration with the AI bugs me, because the AI is THE thing with this game, the reason I play it. So. I had to start tampering to see if the objectives etc would make a difference. And - thank God!! - they did. So, middle of day 2 from an altered scenario below:
As you see, during the night of day 1 the AI has probed holes and launched 3 separate lines of attack, 2 of which have run aground, but the main thrust has required....wait for it....some action from me to get close to stopping it. I've had to move units around, use reserves, counter threats etc. It's been a much better game and - and this is key - STILL plays historically. Because historically the Axis didn't just sit there and do nothing. This was a really tough fight for the Allies, and it should be possible for the AI to make it that way for you. Now I'm not sure if I will win playing at full speed and not being too careful. Or even being careful. I think I will win, but that's probably because so far I haven't fine-tuned the Allies objectives, only the Axis. But already it's restoring my faith in the AI.
But this has made me think about the whole AI thing, so now I've posted a question to Dave about how it works, form the point of view of scenario making.
Meanwhile, I'll fine tune things with this one then post the scenario file, in case anyone wants a better fight out of it.
john connor
Member
So far so good, playing through (on full speed) the altered scenario:
There was a big fight to the south. Many different battles. Losses on both sides. Meanwhile the Axis is trying a different route to the north-west and the fight to the east has pulled away most of my cover over there. And night is coming....!!
There was a big fight to the south. Many different battles. Losses on both sides. Meanwhile the Axis is trying a different route to the north-west and the fight to the east has pulled away most of my cover over there. And night is coming....!!
john connor
Member
This is looking much better. My cavalry have arrived top right, but they're not getting too far. The AI still struggling to find a way around and off the bottom of the map. I'm playing very fast and careless, just to see if the changes I made have changed the AI behaviour. They have certainly. As can be seen, it is probing and trying to get round me. It's still not mounting any attacks of any significance though. The big battle that left all the destroyed units in the south east consisted of multiple small engagements. So far, I haven't seen the AI lined up putting in a combined arms attack using the weight it has. I wonder how I would set the objectives to get it to do this. I have no idea. I've asked Dave about it. For this scenario, to produce these improvements, I gave the AI four linked Exit points to choose from at the southern edge, put nearly all the points on these, then maxed out the Italian leader and unit stats. I wonder if taking points away from 'kill the enemy' in the scenmaker set-up results in the AI probing but not attacking? I will have to experiment a bit with it. But this is already a more active and dynamic AI response.
john connor
Member
10.00AM Day 3. Swamped! They are exiting off the bottom edge and there's nothing I can do to stop them really. My units are too exhausted now to be able to respond in time to the orders I give them.
john connor
Member
This was a very fast run through of an altered version of the stock scenario. I'm pleased with it. Playing carelessly like this, giving no arty orders, very few orders, in fact, letting the AI do almost everything, I think I should get no more than a draw if the scenario is balanced. This happened:
But it leaves me with some questions. The Axis have an overwhelming superiority in numbers, yet to get the AI to be a challenge I had to max out the stats for every Axis unit and leader to 100%. And still, with me playing at full speed and doing almost nothing, the Axis could only get a draw. I feel that with this kind of superiority the AI ought to be able to win with 100% stats. Taking the stats down to where they are in the stock scenario (or working on them to make them even more historically accurate) will not result in a more historical fight. Because, as I said, the fight above was more or less historical. This was a really tough fight for the Allies. If I make the Axis stats historical then I will get a big win, but only at the expense of this not having been a tough fight, because the AI will sit back and do nothing.
I will experiment now with trying to put more points on the 'kill the enemy' part of the objectives for the Axis, to see if I can get it to use its overwhelming superiority to attack.
But it leaves me with some questions. The Axis have an overwhelming superiority in numbers, yet to get the AI to be a challenge I had to max out the stats for every Axis unit and leader to 100%. And still, with me playing at full speed and doing almost nothing, the Axis could only get a draw. I feel that with this kind of superiority the AI ought to be able to win with 100% stats. Taking the stats down to where they are in the stock scenario (or working on them to make them even more historically accurate) will not result in a more historical fight. Because, as I said, the fight above was more or less historical. This was a really tough fight for the Allies. If I make the Axis stats historical then I will get a big win, but only at the expense of this not having been a tough fight, because the AI will sit back and do nothing.
I will experiment now with trying to put more points on the 'kill the enemy' part of the objectives for the Axis, to see if I can get it to use its overwhelming superiority to attack.
john connor
Member
Scenmaker seems a little broke too. It's harder to alter the points totals than it was in CO1. I've posted a bug report about it.
However, I have now taken this scenario and done this to the Axis VP points:
So the Axis AI will get max points for killing the enemy. Just to see what happens to whether it now starts to use its overwhelming superiority to mount attacks. I have left all the Axis stats for units and leaders maxed at 100%.
Within a few hours of playing, look what happens!
The Axis column comes across my armoured cars, as usual, but now, instead of seizing up and doing nothing......it mounts a Bn level attack!! I'm well pleased.
However, I have now taken this scenario and done this to the Axis VP points:
So the Axis AI will get max points for killing the enemy. Just to see what happens to whether it now starts to use its overwhelming superiority to mount attacks. I have left all the Axis stats for units and leaders maxed at 100%.
Within a few hours of playing, look what happens!
The Axis column comes across my armoured cars, as usual, but now, instead of seizing up and doing nothing......it mounts a Bn level attack!! I'm well pleased.
