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Discussion in 'Command Ops Series' started by David Heath, Dec 7, 2014.
Just a quick question, will CO2 be available on OS X?
First off it's not out yet. When it is LNL will create a products page for it and advertise it on the main page of their site. There should then be directions for purchasing it.
No. It may run in an emulator but we don't support that.
Try as I might I have not been able to finish off this engine and bundle pack in time for a Christmas release. I am sorry. I'm taking off the next two weeks and will return in the new year. Hopefully we will get this out shortly after.
We also needed some more time. We both want to get this right and my normal policy is to give the guys a break during the Christmas season. So we get this done early next year.
No problem! Wish you happy holidays! See you 2015!
Devs, no worry, I guess everybody understand you. Take a time what you need to release perfect work Also Daz will have a time to do scenario choose screen. I look forward to the beginning of next year!
What is coming with the split Bulge pack?
I hope the scenarios where not simply separated to make 2 packs or else we land with the price exactly at the level from which Matrix lowered it years back(for a good reason I suppose) and that for the same amount of content.
Now the pricing model made me wonder back in the Matrix days and it makes me still wonder.
That it's tried to have a steady stream of money coming in is understandable but I rather pay for the game and expansions that will add features that can also be beneficial to old content instead of having the hassle to think about what scenario pack to update or not.
And like others mentioned this seems to be a black hole with an update frequency that hight and more scenario packs coming out it may swallow considerable resources in the future to update things that were already payed.
I was hoping to get into HvH with CO2 but I already see that the playerbase will split between the various scenario packs, what is normal as everyone has it's favorites, but that additional within these groups we may also see a split in versions because some people update and some will not update there scenario packs, overall this will surely not enable the playerbase to make more out of the HvH part of the game.
Maybe it can work out but I just simply never ever payed for updates/patches anywhere and I'm reluctant to get into this.
Two major upgrades a year and $50 a pop to upgrade scenario packs!
I would indeed call that a unique distribution model.
Is Panther Games intentionally trying to limit its market to the hardcore grognard WWII PC gamer? If so then your model will be successful. If on the other hand PG has a goal to try to grow its customer base outside of the grognard market then I wish you luck - you're gonna really, really need it. The gamer in me hopes y'all are successful. The financial analyst in me (I'm a financial analyst both by education and trade currently working as a sales analyst for the largest floral wire service in the world) says that sales model will severely limit sales to new customers who won't upgrade when the time comes and the hardcore grognards who will. Self limiting sales model.
I was going to buy the bundle when released, but now will wait until the version with unmounted ops and east front modules comes out.
I'm still abit confused..you say the engine will always be free..does that mean every engine upgrade will be free and you only have to pay for the modules to be upgraded if so ignore what I'm saying below. Also can we say just upgrade one module but leave the others and still be able to play them using the new engine upgrade just they wont use the newer features?
I can understand having to pay for a engine upgrade but then having to pay for the scenarios to be upgraded everytime aswell is I think going to back fire. Combat Mission get grief for their $10 engine upgrade and you don't need to pay for the scenarios again either.
I presume the CO2 engine that will be released for free will always be the first version? I was under the impression the core engine would always be free and you had to pay for any module you want updated? rather than have to pay for both the engine and module..
Also lets say you upgrade the engine but only want to upgrade one particular module, will the older modules still work just without any new features? Or do you have to upgrade all your modules to be able to carry on playing them with the new engine?
I think really you need to rethink. Multiplayer play is going to be seriously compromised doing it this way.
I get you need a more regular input of money rather than having to wait three or four years for each new game I just think there is a better way to do it. Your already losing my purchase of the bundle as I know I just can't afford to constantly be updating all the time so I'm going to wait for the version with mounted Ops and east front scenarios. I do want to support you so you can continue but I really can't afford it with the method your going to be using.
I think you should make the engine say $60 and then the modules $15. If you want to upgrade the engine to the next level then I'd keep it inline with Combat Mission which gets some abuse for it but not enough to worry about and thats $10, just make sure the upgrade has some new features and isn't just a paid patch. Any module you have you can pay $10 for then updated or you can leave them and still be able to play them on the upgraded engine. I don't think people should kepe being charged anything but a very mall amount for scenarios they already have.
Now you then can have engine upgrades which are really big which you can call CO3 and again charge $60 for. I reckon a feature like mountyed Ops would be good enough for a CO3 title.
The macro-mgt features of CO1 are, in my humble opinion, just fun to play. I have been a Combat Mission customer for years. However, I find myself playing the smaller CM scenarios now just because of the tedious nature of the micro-mgt. So I am happy to be able to buy CO2 with the game packs for $50 and I will certainly consider upgrade products.
These guys have a great product, I am going to support them with my business. Being new to the game and not being an online player, I probably don't have the same considerations as others. That said, as long as they sell a value I want to afford, I will likely be happy with however they price their game.
[QUOTE="SSG D, post: 3501, member: 4150" So I am happy to be able to buy CO2 with the game packs for $50 and I will certainly consider upgrade products.
These guys have a great product, I am going to support them with my business. That said, as long as they sell a value I want to afford, I will likely be happy with however they price their game.[/QUOTE]
A Big Plus 1.
I couldn't have said it better myself!
$50 to upgrade data/scenario packs twice a year? It's not like DLC where one is getting entirely new content. We'll be paying to keep playing something we already own not something new. Yeah engine is updated. In many cases the changes will be invisible.
Like I said before. Only the truly hardcore will go for that. The rest of the game playing market will move on to something else.
No offense, but look at the game. Only hardcore grogs would look at in the first place
This isn't Panzer General/Corps where you are trying to get a larger audience.
Nothing is forcing you to upgrade at all mate.
You can carry on playing whichever was the last version you upgraded to.
If you only want to spend $50 a year you only have to upgrade once a year, or even every two years, the choice is yours.
If you want to play it with newly released features, possibly updated twice a year however, you have to contribute to the work that went into making those features.
That's fair is it not?
If you are not impressed with the latest features you can skip updates, and carry on playing with your current version until such time that you are happy that enough features have been added, to make your purchase of the latest version worthwhile.
You are not paying to keep playing something you already own. You can carry on playing what you already own indefinitely.
What you will have to pay for is new features, that you can skip, until you have the funds to acquire them.
At least that's my understanding of how it works.
If someone can explain it better than that feel free to step in.
Can't say better than you ... It's your free choice to upgrade or not ... CO1 is excellent enough to let you play hours without upgrading it ... but new features / engine, new AI and all the work that goes with it worth a price to get it ... Your choice, your freedom
You did fine. And I have understood all along what you all are saying.
Seems though that I'm having difficulty explaining what I am saying. So let me try again.
NOTE: The below is a blunt and to the point narrative of why I believe Panther's distribution model going forward is flawed. Don't want to read a non PC description that is unflattering and written by a professional sales analyst who's been looking at customer behavior at one level or another for the past 20 years then stop reading right now!
OH! And if I didn't give a hoot about Panther's success I wouldn't bother wasting either my time or the bandwidth to continue but there aren't enough really quality wargames out and I hate to see one of the best (maybe the BEST) go down the tubes. There's a better way to generate revenue to keep Panther going than what has been proposed.
The model that Panther has chosen to distribute its product going forward is going to fail, miserably. The only customers that will renew at $50 a pop to get new engine features (you can download the updated engine for free but it won't do you anygood unless you pay the $50 to update your scenario/data packs) are really hardcore grognards (like most of us here) and fanbois (you know the type - they'd buy chicken fried crap if their hero was selling it) .
Panther has no chance to grow its customer base with the proposed/decided upon model. When's the last time you paid for an engine update without getting some new content? Be honest, now.
On the other hand maybe Mr. Arjuna is just a hobbiest (he's got a day job I believe) and is satisfied with breaking even monetarily and he might be able to do that with just the guys who've bought CO1 - maybe. Or maybe he's willing to take a loss and is satisfied with the praise he receives from his fans - maybe. But he's not going to make a profit.
And why not?
The gaming industry is huge. Not one single game publisher that I am aware of charges for updates (and that's what will be offered - updates - not upgrades - there's a difference). The big boys will upgrade Kill'em All 1 to Kill'em All 2 and 3 and usually when they do 2 and 3 are essentially new games. NEW - games. And they don't come out with new versions but once every 2 to 3 years. Panther is essentially going to charge $50 dollars for what the industry calls updates twice a year - or more - according to Mr. Arjuna.
No one charges for updates - no one and there's a very good reason for that.
No one - or very few anyway - would pay for an update (meaning a new button here a new button there, maybe a new graphic or two or an algorithm or maybe a new unit capability) and if a gaming company tried to charge for one - an update that is - it would generate so much ill will and bad publicity (check out the level of hate and discontent that's generated by your typical gamer just because a patch is late - Dragon Age: Inquisition comes to mind) that the mere suggestion of charging for an update would cost the company current and future sales. The big boys are big boys because they understand business, they understand their customers and what drives them to buy, they understand how to get customer's money and guys I am here to tell you and Panther that charging for updates isn't gonna work. The business professionals running the big gaming houses understand customers and gamers don't - that's why the big gaming houses are run by professional business men and not gamers or game designers (in general).
What will work is for Panther to do what the Big Boys do - and that's sell DLC - NEW CONTENT - and bundle the updated game engine with it. That way customers get more than a new button to push. Ya know who's been doing it that way for years and years and is uber successful in the wargame market - <gag> Tiller (guy's been selling scenario packs for what is essentially the same game since Noah was a seaman). That's what works. Another indie author understands too - you may have heard of his game - based on the number of Matrix forum posts it is the 3rd most popular game Matrix sells - Distant Worlds. His model works exactly as I've described - update the engine and sell it with new content. Upgrade (DW:Universe) and sell it to a whole new batch of customers and give the previous owners a deal. Panther thinks its doing us a favor by giving the engine away for free and charging us $50 to convert our data packs - no they're not they're charging us $50 to be able to keep playing what we already own if we want update level features.
Sorry guys but most gamers are going to say "BITE ME". For $50 I can go get a whole new game and that's exactly what they'll do and that whole new game won't be CO2.
I just got it to run CO1 on Mac OSX+Wine. See thread in the Game Support' section.
I will give it a go with CO2 when it comes out.
1. I mostly agree with your conclusion. I am a wargamer and find the game engine only mildly entertaining. The proposed improvements for CO2 are excellent. If they had been there on day 1, I would gladly pay for the next update. I am very reluctant to buy CO2 at this stage.
2. A number of times you mentioned "gamers". Only wargamers will have any interest in this. You need to distinguish between "gamers" and "wargamers".
Hi all, and I just gotta say, as I previously posted over on the Matrix forums when Dave initially proposed it (a year ago?), this whole new pricing scheme has me deeply uneasy. Most of the reasons have been rehashed here, but one I don't think has been brought up again is whether all versions of the game (and I assume here one will have to run an older version of Command Ops 2 to run scenario packs one has chosen not to upgrade, which I haven't seen clarified anywhere), will be patched if something critical comes up that would require doing so. For example, on a worst case, say a new "mandatory" Windows security update breaks something in CO, will Dave put out separate patches for all the previous versions of CO to correct this and make the game workable again? Alternatively, what if some major error come to light in the scenario data. Will previous versions of data packs be patched as well, or only the "latest" updated one?
All that said, I really hope Dave can find a workable economic model for this great system. Further, I consider myself in the core grognard demographic for this game. But that said, the new pricing model has me a bit doubtful of making a purchase, as I had posted a year ago, even with the initial discount model. As I mentioned then, I'd feel much more comfortable paying more for a scenario pack knowing it was going to always be updated to the latest version of the engine (within reason, I can understand there may be a CO3 in say 2018), as opposed to whatever this hybrid purchase subscription model is. Alternatively, what about giving an option to pay a higher price when purchasing a scenario pack to have that scenario pack "future proof" and freely upgradeable. As an example with this offer, I'm very hesistant to pay 50 not knowing what's coming down the line, but I'd be more than happy to pay a 100 without having to worry about future upgrades.