Command Ops 2 Limited Time Offer Bundle Pack Coming Soon
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map66
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One more point, and just to emphasize here, I'm somebody who loves CO, has bought them from Matrix, and very much wants to continue supporting. Well let's deal with the elephant in the room. The original plan was posted about a year ago on the Matrix forums, discussions happened. Etc. etc. Let's actually compare to how it has worked out...
I mean what if there is another publisher switch or who knows? I mentioned the above issues (minus the publisher switch) and how it was causing me not to purchase the Greek pack just til things settled out, which would have otherwise been a day 1 purchase. And I still never bought the Greek pack because of them.
Now the game has switched publishers, and as generous as the initial purchase price is, I'm still wondering... Obviously, I understand how delays happen, as do business matters like changing publisher, and to emphasize again I want to support the system, but I'm just not sure I would put my money down.
The thing about it is, I really like the idea of scenario modules supporting a continuing engine upgrade system. Honestly, I think it could very well be the future of niche grognard wargaming. Just not quite like this. It just doesn't fell right.
I mean what if there is another publisher switch or who knows? I mentioned the above issues (minus the publisher switch) and how it was causing me not to purchase the Greek pack just til things settled out, which would have otherwise been a day 1 purchase. And I still never bought the Greek pack because of them.
Now the game has switched publishers, and as generous as the initial purchase price is, I'm still wondering... Obviously, I understand how delays happen, as do business matters like changing publisher, and to emphasize again I want to support the system, but I'm just not sure I would put my money down.
The thing about it is, I really like the idea of scenario modules supporting a continuing engine upgrade system. Honestly, I think it could very well be the future of niche grognard wargaming. Just not quite like this. It just doesn't fell right.
After reading previous posting and reply for my post, maybe I still will buy this bundle later, but sadly to know this "no discount" for original owners like us.
I remember the original plan post on matrix forum, now situation is upside down completely, the new engine is free for everyone, but we put $50 to play the same scenarios, same price is not fair when compared to whole new comers. I don't want to involve mainstream games here, CO isn't first game to new engine relaunch, lets look at the same niche game - distant worlds, I got base game and all dlcs, so a deep discount for Universe was brought, extra bucks for the new contents.
Actually in my opinion, as a wargame compared to mainstream games, $50 is a great bundle price for the new CO players, this is what I agree and glad to see it, more wargamers can jump into CO series, but like others said, not friendly for CO1 owers especailly already with both 2 dlcs.
I remember the original plan post on matrix forum, now situation is upside down completely, the new engine is free for everyone, but we put $50 to play the same scenarios, same price is not fair when compared to whole new comers. I don't want to involve mainstream games here, CO isn't first game to new engine relaunch, lets look at the same niche game - distant worlds, I got base game and all dlcs, so a deep discount for Universe was brought, extra bucks for the new contents.
Actually in my opinion, as a wargame compared to mainstream games, $50 is a great bundle price for the new CO players, this is what I agree and glad to see it, more wargamers can jump into CO series, but like others said, not friendly for CO1 owers especailly already with both 2 dlcs.
SSG D
Member
CO1 BftB has been on my computer for over a year and I have been playing it for several months. I guess I see CO2 as a new game with even more scenarios for $50. That seems like a fair deal to me. If we want to enjoy quality products, we are going to have to pay someone somehow to create them.
Alright. I've had the base CO1 game for a while, never bought any of the expansions for some reason or another, but I'm glad you left Matrix/Slitherine, I am not a fan of them at all.
Going forward, I like what I see in terms of what you are doing with CO2, and I'm ready to buy this initial super pack for $50, no problem at all.
However, what I definitely do not like, is this idea of paying for upgrades to already owned modules. Battlefront has really been getting into this sort of thing lately, and they are quickly turning into one of my most hated dev/publishers just because of that silly system. Among other problems with their Combat Mission series, that is easily one of the silliest, and I would very prefer not to see that here as well. I'm all for paying for new modules, and free engine upgrades are nice. However you can't really say they're free engine upgrades, if the only way you can play on that new engine is to pay to update your modules as well.
Ignoring the initial sale, you are charging 50$ for a currently unknown amount of features to be usable for the modules that you own. Two modules would be 60$ with your pricing system as well. Do you mean to say that these new features are the equivalent content worth of almost two whole modules then? If this game will ever have any form of multiplayer, this is going to be a massive split audience, because not only do you have to pay attention to who has what modules, but also what engine version everyone is on then? Maybe people without certain modules can play along with a player who has more as long as they have the matching modules for the scenario they decide to play, but they both need to be on the same version. Paying for upgrades to something you have already purchased is definitely not going to expand your audience at all either. I know a lot of people who might be interested in this type of game, and they wouldn't buy from matrix to begin with because of the prices, and nothing ever going on sale. They'd look at this model and not even begin to think about saying yes.
I'm very skeptical of this. You look at the mess that is combat mission, and having 7 completely seperate games all running expansions of their own, and now you gotta pay to upgrade each seperate one, and now there's vehicle packs coming out and it's just a mess. All I see in that is money grubbing. I'm glad you guys were good enough to put everything on a single base engine, and make everything modular, but if these engine upgrades are anything like battlefront's where they add a few small things, half of those things not even being recognizable in gameplay, and then charging money for that, I don't see myself buying anything further than the base pack.
Also what about future modules? Are those going to require certain engine versions to run? Because then you're not buying modules at 30$ per, you're buying them at $55-$80 per depending on how many modules you buy and are forced to upgrade the engine and pay for the other module updates.
Also you're charging what seems to be a flat $50 for module updates. What if someone only owns one modules. They should be paying as much to update their module, and people who update the 10-15 modules they own down the road, pay the same? That doesn't seem right either.
I'm not sure how I feel about this at all.
Going forward, I like what I see in terms of what you are doing with CO2, and I'm ready to buy this initial super pack for $50, no problem at all.
However, what I definitely do not like, is this idea of paying for upgrades to already owned modules. Battlefront has really been getting into this sort of thing lately, and they are quickly turning into one of my most hated dev/publishers just because of that silly system. Among other problems with their Combat Mission series, that is easily one of the silliest, and I would very prefer not to see that here as well. I'm all for paying for new modules, and free engine upgrades are nice. However you can't really say they're free engine upgrades, if the only way you can play on that new engine is to pay to update your modules as well.
Ignoring the initial sale, you are charging 50$ for a currently unknown amount of features to be usable for the modules that you own. Two modules would be 60$ with your pricing system as well. Do you mean to say that these new features are the equivalent content worth of almost two whole modules then? If this game will ever have any form of multiplayer, this is going to be a massive split audience, because not only do you have to pay attention to who has what modules, but also what engine version everyone is on then? Maybe people without certain modules can play along with a player who has more as long as they have the matching modules for the scenario they decide to play, but they both need to be on the same version. Paying for upgrades to something you have already purchased is definitely not going to expand your audience at all either. I know a lot of people who might be interested in this type of game, and they wouldn't buy from matrix to begin with because of the prices, and nothing ever going on sale. They'd look at this model and not even begin to think about saying yes.
I'm very skeptical of this. You look at the mess that is combat mission, and having 7 completely seperate games all running expansions of their own, and now you gotta pay to upgrade each seperate one, and now there's vehicle packs coming out and it's just a mess. All I see in that is money grubbing. I'm glad you guys were good enough to put everything on a single base engine, and make everything modular, but if these engine upgrades are anything like battlefront's where they add a few small things, half of those things not even being recognizable in gameplay, and then charging money for that, I don't see myself buying anything further than the base pack.
Also what about future modules? Are those going to require certain engine versions to run? Because then you're not buying modules at 30$ per, you're buying them at $55-$80 per depending on how many modules you buy and are forced to upgrade the engine and pay for the other module updates.
Also you're charging what seems to be a flat $50 for module updates. What if someone only owns one modules. They should be paying as much to update their module, and people who update the 10-15 modules they own down the road, pay the same? That doesn't seem right either.
I'm not sure how I feel about this at all.
Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor
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Show me a way in which our new publisher can validate a previous purchase from Matrix. They do not have access to Matrix serial numbers and Matrix won't provide them. Providing physical proof of purchase is very time consuming for both the customer and the publisher (who pays for that). They can be relatively easily faked and it's unfair to existing customers who have misplaced their original receipts.
The best option we could come up with was to provide a very low bundle price, which you acknowledge is a good deal. Yes it does mean that new comers also get that. But all you really should be asking is it fair to me . In this case you've already answered that in the affirmative.
FYI I have an undertaking from David Heath that in the event we ever change publisher's again he will give us the serial numbers so this situation never occurs again.
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Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor
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Re paying for module updates. The bottom line is that we need to get in enough money to continue development. We can get that through charging for the engine, the data or both. The traditional approach charges for both by selling a standalone game. For the reasons I have already outlined, we want to move away from that model. It doesn't work for us because it takes too long to do a standalone game. We can't survive and you don't get new products.
It's not as though we are creating a new precedent here. One of the most popular data packs released for Battlefield 4 was an updated version of four classic scenarios from Battlefield 3. Now you might not like it but as I said we have to make our money from somewhere. We are giving away the engine to hopefully bring in new customers and to reduce the overheads of producing standalone games. So we need to make our money from the data. It's that simple.
Now updating data content is not a free home run for us. This requires work. For some upgrades this will be substantial. When we do mounted ops we will have to change every force list to include the split units for motorised and mechanised forces. This will be a huge job and it has to be paid for.
If we were to go back to doing standalone games then we would not bother upgrading any data content. There would be no financial incentive for us do so. So you would always be stuck with playing a particular set of scenarios with whatever engine version it came out with, just as you do with any other standalone game. This way you get to play whatever scenarios you like with whatever version you like. If you want them to run on the latest then you have the option to upgrade them. But that option does not come gratis. It is a service we provide and it must be paid for.
The choice you face is fundamentally this: Do I want to continue enjoying this product? If you do then you have to pay a fair price for it.
I am setting that fair price to be what I need to garner a modest salary, something this product is yet to deliver to me. No one is forcing you to pay it. You don't have to upgrade any module at all. I hope you will realise that this is a reasonable deal, one that gives you options to suit your own budget and allows you to enjoy hundreds of hours of gaming for a fair price.
It's not as though we are creating a new precedent here. One of the most popular data packs released for Battlefield 4 was an updated version of four classic scenarios from Battlefield 3. Now you might not like it but as I said we have to make our money from somewhere. We are giving away the engine to hopefully bring in new customers and to reduce the overheads of producing standalone games. So we need to make our money from the data. It's that simple.
Now updating data content is not a free home run for us. This requires work. For some upgrades this will be substantial. When we do mounted ops we will have to change every force list to include the split units for motorised and mechanised forces. This will be a huge job and it has to be paid for.
If we were to go back to doing standalone games then we would not bother upgrading any data content. There would be no financial incentive for us do so. So you would always be stuck with playing a particular set of scenarios with whatever engine version it came out with, just as you do with any other standalone game. This way you get to play whatever scenarios you like with whatever version you like. If you want them to run on the latest then you have the option to upgrade them. But that option does not come gratis. It is a service we provide and it must be paid for.
The choice you face is fundamentally this: Do I want to continue enjoying this product? If you do then you have to pay a fair price for it.
I am setting that fair price to be what I need to garner a modest salary, something this product is yet to deliver to me. No one is forcing you to pay it. You don't have to upgrade any module at all. I hope you will realise that this is a reasonable deal, one that gives you options to suit your own budget and allows you to enjoy hundreds of hours of gaming for a fair price.
Rob
Member
Hi all,
Cogently put!
While it sounds like an unusual approach to me, I'm perfectly willing to give this business model a tryout. Consider my $50 on it's way! Looking forward to CO2's release........
Rob.
Cogently put!
While it sounds like an unusual approach to me, I'm perfectly willing to give this business model a tryout. Consider my $50 on it's way! Looking forward to CO2's release........
Rob.
Finally rediscovered this game (was on my wishlist a few years ago, totally forgot about it).
Question: why are so many non-wargames on Steam? Is there something fundamentally wrong with Steam for wargame distribution?
Eagerly awaiting for someone to take my money at LnL.
Question: why are so many non-wargames on Steam? Is there something fundamentally wrong with Steam for wargame distribution?
Eagerly awaiting for someone to take my money at LnL.
map66
Member
Yeah, as much as I dislike the model, I'll at least give it a shot with the initial $50 dollar offer, which is generous even for us who have bought the previous games. That said, I probably will hold back at least a few upgrade cycles at that point, just to see how this how thing plays out... And sadly probably not play the game much, as I'm the sort who always needs the latest version to enjoy a game, and have already in the past put CO on the back burner for long stretches waiting for bug squashing patches....
All that said, I really wish there was an option to pay more for the scenario packs on first purchase and have them reasonably future proof---- it seems like a good way to let people already familiar with the system and willing to pay a premium price get what it sounds like many of us here want, while also have a lower priced scenario pack out there to maybe grab in new customers.
All that said, I really wish there was an option to pay more for the scenario packs on first purchase and have them reasonably future proof---- it seems like a good way to let people already familiar with the system and willing to pay a premium price get what it sounds like many of us here want, while also have a lower priced scenario pack out there to maybe grab in new customers.
Dave 'Arjuna' O'Connor
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map66,
And what price do you think would be fair for that "future proofed" module? How long would it be "future proofed"?
And what price do you think would be fair for that "future proofed" module? How long would it be "future proofed"?
map66
Member
Well, maybe for the initial purchase $100 as opposed to $50 (again a very generous number, but keeping into account most of us would have already purchased the games from Matrix, so this is basically an upgrade for us.) And say, if a module is going to cost $30, maybe allow a "future proof" purchase for $60. And as far as "future proofed" goes, I understand there will be a CO3 in the future. Who knows how distant a future, but it hopefully will have radical new features that no one has thought of yet. But, maybe, at least going back to that original "the plan" post over on Matrix, maybe as far as the proposed cycle of changes/future modules mentioned there. Which will probably take us at least a few years into the future... 
And, as I posted above, I never bought the Greek pack from Matrix given the uncertainty on the future of the engine---- that was money I would have spent otherwise , but I was just a bit unsure of the future model. And, honestly, if I now buy it from LnL in the initial offer, it kinda confirms my initial queasiness on the model.
And, as I posted above, I never bought the Greek pack from Matrix given the uncertainty on the future of the engine---- that was money I would have spent otherwise , but I was just a bit unsure of the future model. And, honestly, if I now buy it from LnL in the initial offer, it kinda confirms my initial queasiness on the model.
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Hi Map66
LnL has already made the pledge to provide Dave all customers serial numbers if he should ever decides to leave LnL. We came up with this purchase option to give everyone a chance to get the latest and greatest version at a price for one game. Going forward we will be able to provide a way for customers to be able to get a discount on the games going forward. The discount we are offering is for a limited time and it is for everyone. This option also gives everyone a chance to download and even play the game before a single penny leaves your wallet. I feel Dave and I are putting all the best options forward giving the options we have available to us. It also helps give new wargamers a chance to try out a full (not limited) edition of the game. I also feel asking $100.00 is not a great idea. Paying even $50.00 twice over a period of time gives the customer the most options.
I hope this better explains our reasons and plans.
David
LnL has already made the pledge to provide Dave all customers serial numbers if he should ever decides to leave LnL. We came up with this purchase option to give everyone a chance to get the latest and greatest version at a price for one game. Going forward we will be able to provide a way for customers to be able to get a discount on the games going forward. The discount we are offering is for a limited time and it is for everyone. This option also gives everyone a chance to download and even play the game before a single penny leaves your wallet. I feel Dave and I are putting all the best options forward giving the options we have available to us. It also helps give new wargamers a chance to try out a full (not limited) edition of the game. I also feel asking $100.00 is not a great idea. Paying even $50.00 twice over a period of time gives the customer the most options.
I hope this better explains our reasons and plans.
David
map66
Member
Thanks David and Dave for your replies.
Could I just have a few questions answered? So say, I buy the initial offer, but don't want to upgrade the scenarios. Then I want to buy the East Front pack, without spending the premium to upgrade the other scenarios. Will I still be able to play the initially purchased scenarios with the new version of the game, or will I have to have two seperate versions of the game installed? If it is the case that the most modern version of the game will allow you to access "old" un-updated scenario packs, with obviously the new features disabled, will you retrospectively patch any old-updated packs that might be broken by these new features, even in a kinda drive by way? For example, say the mounted infantry feature changes something in the game that has a spillover effect into non-updated scenario packs, will that bug be fixed? Alternatively, if you can only run old scenario packs on an older version of the engine, will you patch them if something dramatic comes up? In a previous post I mentioned a hypothetical "mandatory" Windows security upgrade that breaks CO, and whether it would only be patched for the current engine or all previous ones. And finally, if a data error is discovered in a scenario pack, will it be patched for all versions of the game or only the most current one?
Again, I hope I'm just making a point of potential problems in the new model. As I said, I in all likelihood I will purchase the initial offer--- though that I go back and forth in my head on it is probably a bad thing, as I'm probably as core a customer of yours as you could get... And as someone above mentioned, I've avoided the Combat Mission games because of this "pay for patch" model, and only considering it here because I really love the system already (and LnL HOS for that matter.) And I do think a modular system is the future for wargames, but I think there are a lot of problems that need to be dealt with first.
Could I just have a few questions answered? So say, I buy the initial offer, but don't want to upgrade the scenarios. Then I want to buy the East Front pack, without spending the premium to upgrade the other scenarios. Will I still be able to play the initially purchased scenarios with the new version of the game, or will I have to have two seperate versions of the game installed? If it is the case that the most modern version of the game will allow you to access "old" un-updated scenario packs, with obviously the new features disabled, will you retrospectively patch any old-updated packs that might be broken by these new features, even in a kinda drive by way? For example, say the mounted infantry feature changes something in the game that has a spillover effect into non-updated scenario packs, will that bug be fixed? Alternatively, if you can only run old scenario packs on an older version of the engine, will you patch them if something dramatic comes up? In a previous post I mentioned a hypothetical "mandatory" Windows security upgrade that breaks CO, and whether it would only be patched for the current engine or all previous ones. And finally, if a data error is discovered in a scenario pack, will it be patched for all versions of the game or only the most current one?
Again, I hope I'm just making a point of potential problems in the new model. As I said, I in all likelihood I will purchase the initial offer--- though that I go back and forth in my head on it is probably a bad thing, as I'm probably as core a customer of yours as you could get... And as someone above mentioned, I've avoided the Combat Mission games because of this "pay for patch" model, and only considering it here because I really love the system already (and LnL HOS for that matter.) And I do think a modular system is the future for wargames, but I think there are a lot of problems that need to be dealt with first.
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Hi Map66
Ok I am not 100% following you on the initial order part. The core game is free with two scenarios and for a limited time offer we will allow everyone to purchase all officially release games/scenario packs for $50.00 together. We will be fixing, patching and/or handling any crash bugs for the current version of the game engine we are supporting. If a dramatic issue comes up we will of course look at that for an older version. I think Dave has done great supporting the current customer base and will go on doing so.
As for security upgrade or a data error this is really going to depend on what that is. It is really impossible for us to say now on an issue we can't even talk about yet. "Pay for Patch" model is not how I see it. If we simply called this Command Ops 2 and charge for full new game and then did that for each game in the series is at a much higher cost for the gamers. You already know how Dave from Panther Games has handle things and if you were a Matrix Games customer (minus the last 4 years) you know how I did things. This really allow us to provide more content and that what a game like this really needs.
This system was talked with all of the new developers that have signed up so far at LnL and we feel it solves a lot of problems and allow us to much better support the gamers and the games. It allows new gamers to try new systems sight unseen and when an engine change is made all your content is also updated.
I also hope you see have closely Dave and I are watching and replying to your concerns. I hope I answered all of your concerns and you will give it a try.
David
Ok I am not 100% following you on the initial order part. The core game is free with two scenarios and for a limited time offer we will allow everyone to purchase all officially release games/scenario packs for $50.00 together. We will be fixing, patching and/or handling any crash bugs for the current version of the game engine we are supporting. If a dramatic issue comes up we will of course look at that for an older version. I think Dave has done great supporting the current customer base and will go on doing so.
As for security upgrade or a data error this is really going to depend on what that is. It is really impossible for us to say now on an issue we can't even talk about yet. "Pay for Patch" model is not how I see it. If we simply called this Command Ops 2 and charge for full new game and then did that for each game in the series is at a much higher cost for the gamers. You already know how Dave from Panther Games has handle things and if you were a Matrix Games customer (minus the last 4 years) you know how I did things. This really allow us to provide more content and that what a game like this really needs.
This system was talked with all of the new developers that have signed up so far at LnL and we feel it solves a lot of problems and allow us to much better support the gamers and the games. It allows new gamers to try new systems sight unseen and when an engine change is made all your content is also updated.
I also hope you see have closely Dave and I are watching and replying to your concerns. I hope I answered all of your concerns and you will give it a try.
David
"The core game is free with two scenarios and for a limited time offer we will allow everyone to purchase all officially release games/scenario packs for $50.00 together."
Just so I'm clear: neither of this is available now, right? Just a Web wanderer who's keenly interested in acquiring Command Ops, in some shape or form.
Just so I'm clear: neither of this is available now, right? Just a Web wanderer who's keenly interested in acquiring Command Ops, in some shape or form.
map66
Member
Thanks for the reply David. And though I certainly trust both your and Dave's reputation---- I am a very, very long time customer---- I think as far as this new pricing model goes, I'll hold off on paying into it until I can see how everything works out over a few update cycles. I truly hope my concerns will prove unjustified, and that a few updates from now it will be a thriving game engine with a thriving multiplayer and moding community.
Edit: One other possible suggestion, what about including a couple free data pack upgrades with each scenario pack purchase? There could be a reasonable increase in price if necessary. This would go along way to assuaging my queasiness on the model, as it would allow one to keep playing certain scenarios that one is interested in at the time. It might also be the case where a data upgrade fixes a bug particularly prominent in one module, but doesn't do all that much in others, so there doesn't seem much need to upgrade the other modules. Above that, it would be a way for one to support the engine by buying new content, keeping those portions of the content you are currently interested in updated, without making the user feel he is "paying for a patch" (even if that's not what one is formally calling data pack upgrades.)
Edit: One other possible suggestion, what about including a couple free data pack upgrades with each scenario pack purchase? There could be a reasonable increase in price if necessary. This would go along way to assuaging my queasiness on the model, as it would allow one to keep playing certain scenarios that one is interested in at the time. It might also be the case where a data upgrade fixes a bug particularly prominent in one module, but doesn't do all that much in others, so there doesn't seem much need to upgrade the other modules. Above that, it would be a way for one to support the engine by buying new content, keeping those portions of the content you are currently interested in updated, without making the user feel he is "paying for a patch" (even if that's not what one is formally calling data pack upgrades.)
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Crickets. Anyone?
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No nothing is currently available now but we plan on releasing Command Ops 2 in January 2015 God willing.
David
